Guess skyway expansion won't happen either?

[zoo]

http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-04-16/story/jacksonville’s_historic_brooklyn_area_redevelopment_on_hold

[Shwaz]

1. There were no plans to extend the skyway into Riverside.. other than on this forum.

2. This was a private developer that lost funding for the commercial residential project.

[Joe]

Yes there were. The city was going to add a passenger station at the current vehicle repair building in Brooklyn. It's not an expansion of the tracks, but an expansion of the service. I'm sure that's what zoo is talking about.

[Shwaz]

From all the things I've read and discussions on this  site the skyway has been completed since the last extensions back in 2000.

[thelakelander]

Well to be honest, it would not make sense to construct a station there without the development already going up next door.  That's the type of strategy that ended up with the Jefferson Street Station in the middle of a grass parking lot.

[heights unknown]

They really need to, or should extend to the Sports Complex and Riverside (in my opinion), but I was under the impression, through this forum, that nothing more is in the cards, extension-wise, for the Skyway.  I think and believe if there is an extension, it won't happen during our lifetimes (the way Jax Government and Leadership works).

Heights Unknown

[Shwaz]

I believe there were "concepts" in the wings but nothing as far as a real plan with wheels in motion.

[stjr]

Not to beat a dead horse (but I will   ), I don't think missing this development is the only reason for not expanding the $ky-high-way!  Let me count the ways.....

Oooops.  Are those footsteps I hear coming?  Ock, Lake, is that you?    Better move on.

[Ocklawaha]

Brooklyn Park Skyway Center - JTA Plan.

1. There were no plans to extend the skyway into Riverside.. other than on this forum.

2. This was a private developer that lost funding for the commercial residential project.

Shwaz, there was a beautiful plan by JTA for the Brooklyn Park Skyway Station. It was a clean break with everything they had done in the past, and more of a nod to history and rail heritage. Perhaps even a salute to the Streetcar Barn that they blew up in order to build the Skyway repair facility on that hill. While it was a private developer, it absolutely was every bit of a public/private partnership in many ways. Brooklyn was/is one of the oldest sections of the City and untouched by the great fire of 1901. This station can/could have broken ground at any moment.

Yes there were. The city was going to add a passenger station at the current vehicle repair building in Brooklyn. It's not an expansion of the tracks, but an expansion of the service. I'm sure that's what zoo is talking about.

You are correct in everything except the "no new track" segment. In a system as tiny as the Skyway is right now, that extra 150 yards into the station would have been all new track. If one stands on the Southwest end of the Riverside Viaduct and look back toward the Skyway tracks as they approach the maintenance facility, you might note a "phantom" switch that ends in midair. This is the Brooklyn/Riverside line of the Skyway system. If the station were built, the new double track would run from that switch, Southeast toward Riverside Avenue. The new station itself would
occupy the ground between the Skyway Maintenance Facility and Riverside Avenue, almost exactly across from the TU.

Well to be honest, it would not make sense to construct a station there without the development already going up next door.  That's the type of strategy that ended up with the Jefferson Street Station in the middle of a grass parking lot.

You mean the JTA planners of those "Skyways Will Inherit the Earth" Days, HAD A STRATEGY?

They really need to, or should extend to the Sports Complex and Riverside (in my opinion), but I was under the impression, through this forum, that nothing more is in the cards, extension-wise, for the Skyway.  I think and believe if there is an extension, it won't happen during our lifetimes (the way Jax Government and Leadership works).

Heights Unknown

You could be right Heights, but I sure hope not. Logic would dictate at some point for us to quit trying to ride a bicycle without wheels. BTW, this little Skyway has enough technology to leave an airline pilot standing with his mouth wide open. We've done all the hard part, from here on out it's just track and stations, something that COULD be done in a pinch with volunteer labor and materials.
With the current administration in DC, The Skyway should be in an excellent position to get whatever we can dream up for it. If one reads the way priorities are gauged for funding, our Skyway should bounce right to the top of everyones list. So here we are, "In a land where the dreams that you dare to dream, really do come true..." SO someone please tell me, is ANYONE still dreaming downtown?

The bigger loss in not building this station, is found in the attraction of the development potential of the parcels themselves. So put yourself into the shoes of Mr or Ms JAXSON Newbie Executive. You've got $200 to $300 Million to locate the HQ of your new Fortune 500... "SKIN AND FLINT FINANCIAL SERVICES". Being both a dedicated GREEN company as well as a loyal Jacksonville patriot, where do you build if the Skyway hasn't expanded one foot in the last 30 years?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

The bigger loss in not building this station, is found in the attraction of the development potential of the parcels themselves. So put yourself into the shoes of Mr or Ms JAXSON Newbie Executive. You've got $200 to $300 Million to locate the HQ of your new Fortune 500... "SKIN AND FLINT FINANCIAL SERVICES". Being both a dedicated GREEN company as well as a loyal Jacksonville patriot, where do you build if the Skyway hasn't expanded one foot in the last 30 years?[/color][/b]

So, Ock, you are saying "Build it and they will come?"  Why do I feel a sense of deja vu?

Didn't this area already experience your scenario with Fidelity National (or was that your point - not sure)?  If they wanted the $ky-high-way to be extended to attract their HQ's here, I am sure the City would have done it in the blink of an eye.  But, apparently, they were content to move here without such a requirement. 

What makes you think it would be important to anyone else and where do you plan to find such a company nowadays anyhow?  I note that Blue Cross, whose tower in Riverside used to be their HQ's, moved all their growth to the suburbs.  Not once have I heard them discuss expanding in Riverside or offering to do so if the $ky-high-way came closer to their building.  Merrill Lynch came to Jax and headed straight for the burbs.  Barnett, who once was a big champion of Downtown (recall their offer to help rebuild the Civic Auditorium/Times Union Center if they could have built their new HQ's on that site?), still chose to build their mega-center at the Avenues (now Bank of America).  Did Deutsche Bank ever consider this with their 1,000 jobs?  As a European company, I would think they might have a greater appreciation.   But apparently, no.  How about Fidelity Financial from "big city" and enlightened Boston and their 1,500? And, so on....

And, look at LaVilla which is serviced by the $ky-high-way.  All that unused land after all these years.  And, the few new buildings there, like Interline, are merely suburban style office buildings with the standard outdoor surface parking lots.  Heck, they even built a security fence around the whole place.  Didn't look like they cared for the $ky-high-way.  I know lots of people working in the Wachovia building adjacent to that $ky-high-way, but haven't found one that rides the darn thing (although I imagine there might be at least one  )

Here is another question:  When JTA says 1,700 riders a day for the $ky-high-way, should I divide that by 2 for round trips, to obtain the number of unique riders?  If so, that comes to 850 people or so.  If I divide this into the roughly $4.5 million loss each year to operate this, that comes to a subsidy of $5,294 per rider per year.  I wonder how that compares to our bus subsidies or to our per pupil spending in the schools?  Interesting.....

[Ocklawaha]

The bigger loss in not building this station, is found in the attraction of the development potential of the parcels themselves. So put yourself into the shoes of Mr or Ms JAXSON Newbie Executive. You've got $200 to $300 Million to locate the HQ of your new Fortune 500... "SKIN AND FLINT FINANCIAL SERVICES". Being both a dedicated GREEN company as well as a loyal Jacksonville patriot, where do you build if the Skyway hasn't expanded one foot in the last 30 years?[/color][/b]

So, Ock, you are saying "Build it and they will come?"  Why do I feel a sense of deja vu?

Didn't this area already experience your scenario with Fidelity National (or was that your point - not sure)?  If they wanted the $ky-high-way to be extended to attract their HQ's here, I am sure the City would have done it in the blink of an eye.  But, apparently, they were content to move here without such a requirement. 

What makes you think it would be important to anyone else and where do you plan to find such a company nowadays anyhow?  I note that Blue Cross, whose tower in Riverside used to be their HQ's, moved all their growth to the suburbs.  Not once have I heard them discuss expanding in Riverside or offering to do so if the $ky-high-way came closer to their building.  Merrill Lynch came to Jax and headed straight for the burbs.  Barnett, who once was a big champion of Downtown (recall their offer to help rebuild the Civic Auditorium/Times Union Center if they could have built their new HQ's on that site?), still chose to build their mega-center at the Avenues (now Bank of America).  Did Deutsche Bank ever consider this with their 1,000 jobs?  As a European company, I would think they might have a greater appreciation.   But apparently, no.  How about Fidelity Financial from "big city" and enlightened Boston and their 1,500? And, so on....

And, look at LaVilla which is serviced by the $ky-high-way.  All that unused land after all these years.  And, the few new buildings there, like Interline, are merely suburban style office buildings with the standard outdoor surface parking lots.  Heck, they even built a security fence around the whole place.  Didn't look like they cared for the $ky-high-way.  I know lots of people working in the Wachovia building adjacent to that $ky-high-way, but haven't found one that rides the darn thing (although I imagine there might be at least one  )

Here is another question:  When JTA says 1,700 riders a day for the $ky-high-way, should I divide that by 2 for round trips, to obtain the number of unique riders?  If so, that comes to 850 people or so.  If I divide this into the roughly $4.5 million loss each year to operate this, that comes to a subsidy of $5,294 per rider per year.  I wonder how that compares to our bus subsidies or to our per pupil spending in the schools?  Interesting.....

Yes, that IS what I'm saying, but with a targeted twist. I would no more keep the Skyway in the city's hip pocket then I would Delta Airlines or Amtrak. I believe the Skyway freed from the fetters of overlords as a quasi-Government operation, funded by the City and DOT, and operated or expanded like a business would work.

You might have also noted my expansions under such a program probably would reach barely 3 more miles. IE: Stadium/Randolph, Atlantic and FEC RY, Blue Cross/Fidelity.

Where WAS the City and where WAS JTA when these company's could have been consulting with us and getting direction on how to put together a deal with the Skyway blowing right through the Lobby Al La Disney Resort? The biggest single problem isn't the little Monorail that can't it's the damned bureaucrat's sucking eggs, while the system dies on the vine for lack of marketing, promotion or effort. Why isn't it front and center in all the Corporate Recruitment Brochures? Why isn't it hung out like a carrot to anyone coming close? Why don't we pass on parking regulations for corporations that locate on SKYWAY, STREETCAR and buy monthly system wide transit passes for employees.

You see stjr, When Ennis and I take over the world, your just the kind of thinker I want to have by my side to watch and get creative with our lemons.

As for your math, the 1,700 represents unique rides, not round trips. We were up to just above 3,000 PPD, and Peyton and lemmings got a wild hair that the Skyway would do better if we raised the fair. IDIOTS!

Check this math, each train can comfortably carry 40 passengers in two cars. But each trip is only drawing perhaps 10 passengers, getting on and off so each train trip brings in $5 dollars. But we were getting double the passenger usage at 1/2 the fare, for the same income per trip! What would happen if we charged .10 cents a head, and leased the grounds of every station for hot dog carts, mini-shops, vendors, artists, etc.

We have already acknowledged that transit won't make money, so why the fare hike? Wouldn't it be much better to have ridership climb to 8,000 per day, and consider the effect on traffic and parking lot revenues?

As for a roads, "THIS TRUCK PAYS $9,910 DOLLARS A YEAR IN ROAD USE TAX." So everyone figures the good ol private enterprise Greyhound, Yellow Freight etc... all pay their own way. Did you know if all the money collected from all motor carrier use tax was funneled into one state, Pennsylvania, it wouldn't patch the pot holes on the Turnpike for a single year.

The enlightenment could be there, but as long as good-ol-boys, back slapping, concrete, developers are in charge, we'll never break out of our mold. In 1960, NO BODY in America could find ORLANDO, but they all knew Jacksonville was a major rail center. Today, nobody but Denver fans even know where Jacksonville is at... And hell, their all watching the game from a Walt Disney Resort.

I'm not selling you or anyone else the Skyway as it + extended. I want radical, major, change in the whole program. I'll issue a challenge to the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE, allow a management team to take charge, Myself, Lakelander and a few others (you too if you want in) and I promise within 2 years we double the ridership + cut the loss in 1/2.
OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, thanks for the "tip o' the hat".  I certainly share, and have previously expressed in MJ threads, your frustration with the visioning and execution abilities of our civic leadership over many decades.  I guess we could trace it all the way back to the turn of the century when we ran off "Hollywood".  We've been taking more wrong than right turns ever since.

Where were Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Charlotte, Ft. Lauderdale, or others way back then and where are they today?  I can't say I want Jax to be quite like them, but they didn't get to where they are either without some forward thinking.

I actually think it may be an accidental blessing that Jax blundered its way to being a traditionally "slow growth" city compared to these examples.  The blessing is that we have, to now, had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others in order to better manage our growth and preservation of open spaces.   Unfortunately, we are continuing much of our beleaguered tradition, and squandering opportunities daily again and again due to the failure to follow those things that have been successful elsewhere and to avoid those things that have been failures.

Yes, we have had some successes but how many more missed opportunities.  I would compare it to someone being proud they made $20,000 on a venture and failing to realize that with only a little more effort they could have made a million.

My priorities for this community would include education at all levels (K through Post graduate), mass transit that works efficiently for the investment and has the biggest impact on changing our lifestyles, preservation of open lands that once lost can't ever be recovered, and investment in our history and culture (historic preservation, museum developments, cultural development, etc.).   When people evaluate a place to live, these are the things that I think rank first, and well above the simple minded issue of "How much are our taxes?"  Unfortunately, in Jax and Florida at present, it seems none of this ranks as important as "taxes" even though we are in one of the least taxed cities and states in the U.S.  I have always noted that some of the most desired places to live in this country are those with the highest taxes, but also the highest qualities of life.  It's great to have both low taxes and high quality of life, but its not necessarily a necessity, and probably not realistic.

[mtraininjax]

My priorities for this community would include education at all levels (K through Post graduate), mass transit that works efficiently for the investment and has the biggest impact on changing our lifestyles, preservation of open lands that once lost can't ever be recovered, and investment in our history and culture (historic preservation, museum developments, cultural development, etc.).

I like your thinking on education. To heck with rail systems that cost millions of dollars, what good is a rail system when you have punks roaming the streets because they have no education to allow them to use transportation to get the good job in the first place? We have a gas tax in place that pays for roads and for the JTA, use it for the trolleys and move people to defined locations (Riverside, Avondale, Ortega, San Marco, Downtown) start small, grow into them, offer special trips for weekend and holidays. No one who lives close to downtown should ever need to drive downtown, but I'll be darned if I am going to get on a bus and be dumped off with the rif-raf that hangs out at the FCCJ-Downtown terminal, and neither will many others.

Preservation of lands and museums require revenue. Where will you get that revenue? Higher taxes in a time when people can't even afford their JEA bills? I have an idea, spend the tax money on rail systems, or better yet, on the school system. The first university was not founded in Jax until 1969, people forget that Jax was a blue collar town, and the people who had, kept those without down for many years with low paying jobs, because they had no education. We need to invest in the education system and make that a real priority. All else will come as a result of having a better educated population. I would not oppose a property tax increase for education.

[JeffreyS]

Education is important to building quality of life in any area but the reverse is also true.  In the book the tipping point it sites an interesting study showing the correlation between then number of professionals living in an area and the scholastic success of a neighborhood and how quickly it can change as professionals move into an area.  Transit is just one tool for making neighborhoods more successful and attractive but IMHO a very potent one.