Amend Sunrail Deal: This train has too much baggage

[fsujax]

The North Florida TPO passed a resolution of support yesterday, supporting in principal the central Florida commuter rail deal. The most interesting thing was to see Commissioner Conkey from Clay County speaking up on the issue. Clay County really wants the mass transit! and they need it.

[thelakelander]

Its encouraging to see one of our suburban communities supporting alternative transportation options.  With the longest daily commutes in the State, I can see why they want mass transit. 

[JeffreyS]

I believe Clay County has already purchased land for a commuter rail station near on 220 near Flemming Island in hopes of the future.

[thelakelander]

I saw a few conceptual renderings of this at a meeting I attended last year.  Kudos to the Clay County government for planning ahead.

[mtraininjax]

Its encouraging to see one of our suburban communities supporting alternative transportation options.  With the longest daily commutes in the State, I can see why they want mass transit. 

Yes - Great one - This works in Orlando, long commute times. Get people out of their cars on I-4, especially if they are headed to South of town or Lake Mary or any one of 5 main exits off of I-4 north of downtown. Rail is perfect for this need.

But we do not have the density problems yet here in Jax. If we added tolls just inside of the I-295 loop, we would have fewer people inside the beltway - and people who use 295 would love all those folks from Canada and New York, sharing the Buckman with them, but it would be a good idea, to me. I'd pay for a toll road that had fewer people on it and was quicker from A to B. After all, that is what the Florida Turnpike is all about.

[JeffreyS]

Question: Longest commute in the state?
Answer: Clay County

[thelakelander]

There are no congestion issues locally.  This has to be a mirage.

[FayeforCure]

The North Florida TPO passed a resolution of support yesterday, supporting in principal the central Florida commuter rail deal. The most interesting thing was to see Commissioner Conkey from Clay County speaking up on the issue. Clay County really wants the mass transit! and they need it.

Everyone supports the central Florida Commuter Rail in principle. I don't think that ever was an issue.

What HAS been an issue is that there hasn't been a careful assessment of costs to protect the taxpayer, to make sure we have financial and public support for future rail projects in Florida. Imagine if we can have more rail projects, by keeping costs down. The public would buy into such a set up, rather than what they perceive to be tax-payer money give-aways.

Here is just one example:

GAO Report Questions Rail Agreements

By LINDSAY PETERSON | The Tampa Tribune

Published: March 30, 2009

A U.S. General Accounting Office report raises questions about the type of liability agreement the state wants to sign with CSX Transportation in the Central Florida commuter rail project.

U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn. and head of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, sought the report last year, when U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, started asking questions about the state's proposal.

The Florida Department of Transportation wants to give CSX Transportation more than $450 million to buy 61 miles of its tracks in Central Florida. It would be used to create a commuter system, called SunRail.

As a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.

CSX and the DOT have said the agreement is typical of most across the country. Castor questioned that, and she and Oberstar asked the GAO to study rail agreements in other places where commuter and freight trains use the same tracks.

In the February report, the GAO found a variety of arrangements. Some were specific about what would and would not be protected. One agreement, for instance, specifically excluded "conduct that is taken with conscious disregard for or indifference to the property or safety or welfare of others."

Many agreements protected freight companies from all liability in commuter accidents. The GAO noted that several courts of law and the Surface Transportation Board have said that practice goes against the public interest.

Oberstar said he planned to have his committee study the issue to try and find a fair way to decide who should be responsible in commuter-freight train accidents.

"Some of these agreements make no exception for cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct," he said. "This is an unacceptable practice."
Reporter Lindsay Peterson can be reached at (813) 259-7834.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/30/gao-report-queations-rail-agreements/news-breaking/

Lets work out some of the kinks and get the show on the road.

The GAO is one of the most non-partisan investigative entities in government,..........thank goodness there still are some non-partisan government entities around!

[thelakelander]

As a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.

Since the State will own the line, who will dispatch the trains?  Also, will CSX trains be allowed to use the Sunrail line during Sunrail operating hours?

[fsujax]

Well, if these kinks aren't worked out soon, the State will lose federal funding for this project and that money will be sent to other areas of the country who have their act together. The FTA already looks down on Florida as far as transit goes, so this delaying does not help us at all. Central Florida has already lost out in the past with these types of delays. Just ask our friends in Charlotte what it is like to recieve money from the feds that was to go to Florida to build a light rail project.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, Charlotte is hoping Florida screws this one up too.  They have a couple of more rail lines they would like to build.

As a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.

Since the State will own the line, who will dispatch the trains?  Also, will CSX trains be allowed to use the Sunrail line during Sunrail operating hours?

Anyway, I found the answer I was looking for, in this article:

Central Florida commuter rail: Who pays if somebody gets hurt?
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen

...In essence, the bill says CSX, which would sell its tracks for $150 million to SunRail and then pay to use them, would be responsible only for its equipment and employees if there is an accident.

Just about everything else would be the responsibility of SunRail, regardless of which company is at fault. That means SunRail would pay for its train and employees, plus passengers or even anyone injured while waiting for a train.

Yarbrough said SunRail would be responsible for passengers and bystanders -- even if CSX were to blame for the accident -- because of what’s known as the “but for” argument: “But for” SunRail, they most likely would not have been in the rail corridor.

The exception would be “third-party” claims, which would be split by CSX and SunRail. A third party might be a motorist hurt at a crossing.

As it stands, SunRail would have exclusive use of the tracks for 12 hours a day, from 5 to 10 a.m. and 3 to 10 p.m. CSX would have the tracks solely from midnight to 5 a.m. Other times, the tracks would be shared, with SunRail in charge of dispatching.

In Massachusetts, the arrangement being considered by the Florida Legislature would have resulted in MBTA, or the state, being responsible for all injured commuters. Drew Lanier, a University of Central Florida political-science professor, said CSX can demand such a pact because it owns the tracks and SunRail can’t operate without them.

full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=25328

So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?

[FayeforCure]

Well, if these kinks aren't worked out soon, the State will lose federal funding for this project and that money will be sent to other areas of the country who have their act together. The FTA already looks down on Florida as far as transit goes, so this delaying does not help us at all. Central Florida has already lost out in the past with these types of delays. Just ask our friends in Charlotte what it is like to recieve money from the feds that was to go to Florida to build a light rail project.

Speaking of which,...........I read in a comment that ridership on the proposed Orlando light rail system was estimated far higher than the higher cost central Florida Rail line that's now being considered.

Here is the comment:

Fact Concerning the Capital Cost:

Currently, FDOT claims the total cost of this project is $641 million dollars.
As a point of comparison, the Light Rail Transit System in the I-4 corridor had a cost of $600 million and was voted DOWN by Orange County voters. It a ridership in excess of 24,000 per day.

Give the voters a choice between light rail (I-4 corridor) with 24,000 trips a day and commuter rail (on CSX tracks) with 3500 trips a day.

Given the facts, it makes one wonder how we ever arrived at this point.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/04/sunrail-friends-foes-turn-up-the-volume-.html

Does anyone know if these ridership numbers are valid?

If so, the light rail system would have taken roughly 8 times more traffic off the road as the Central Florida commuter rail.

[FayeforCure]

So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?

So you don't think a CSX train operator could make a mistake?

Monday, September 15, 2008

SIMI VALLEY, Calif. â€"  Albert "Jay" Cox could not believe his eyes when he saw a freight train hurtling toward the commuter train he was riding.

"Because the brakes of our train were not being thrown on, I thought I was seeing it wrong," he said.

But there was nothing wrong with his vision. In an instant, he was hurled over the row of seats in front of him and smashed face-first into a table.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,422523,00.html

[thelakelander]

Ideally, they should have both, since the systems would serve different demographics.  The light rail line will be shorter, with more stops and a high frequency of service.  It will directly connect DT with the International Drive area.  Sunrail is set up to bring riders in from the surrounding counties with less service frequency.  It will connect DT with city centers in Volusia and Osceola Counties.  For Orlando, it also reduces the amount of daily freight traffic that cuts a city with limited grade separated crossings and major congestion issues in half.  

The light rail plan is also more expensive.  The 22-mile line is estimated to cost $1.3 billion to build.  Sunrail is a 61-mile system that will bring commuter rail to Orlando and improve freight service throughout Central Florida with the state investing to upgrade the CSX S Line.  A better freight corridor will enhance Florida's ports, industrial and distribution markets, which will spur thousands of jobs in the future.

So, I don't know if it makes much sense to argue them as competing against each other, when they are planning them to complement each other.

Here is a link to information about Orlando's North/South light rail plans: http://www.sunrail.com/nslightrail.asp

[thelakelander]

So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?

So you don't think a CSX train operator could make a mistake?

I invite Ock's family to come over to cook a Colombian meal in my kitchen and his wife burns my condo building down in the process, who's responsible?  It's the skillet operater's fault, but the financial impact will hit my bank account.  In any situation, mistakes can happen.

However, I think the main opposition to the Sunrail deal strictly revolves around politics.  If the liability argument were the issue, then we should consider not allowing Sunrail to dispatch freight trains during passenger train operating hours.  However, its not.  This is a typical commuter rail provision.  In fact, its the same one in place with South Florida's Tri-Rail and others across the country.  From what I've seen from Dockery's arguments, this is about throwing enough rocks and hoping that one will eventually land.