Amend Sunrail Deal: This train has too much baggage

[FayeforCure]

Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09

This train has too much baggage

OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project

Commuter trains can be a great way to move a lot of people from one place to another, especially when the trains are run efficiently and intersect with dense population areas. This is why the idea of a central Florida commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, which would pass through busy Orlando, is so appealing. However, the appeal of the proposed 61-mile SunRail project under consideration in the Legislature loses much of its luster because of its high sticker price and its overly generous indemnity provisions.

Floridians, pay attention

Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.

There is more. The cost of building the commuter line would add an additional $615 million to the overall price of the project. The costs would be divided among the federal government, which would pay half, the state, which picks up 25 percent, and five local governments, which will pay for the remaining 25 percent. In other words, all Florida taxpayers, including those in South Florida, have a stake in the project.

The legislation (SB1212 and H7009) deals primarily with providing insurance protection for the train operators, both CSX and the state -- and the terms of the deal will be extended to Tri-Rail. The problem is that the legislation assigns greater responsibility to the state for any accidents that occur and shields CSX from some of its own mistakes.

The bills require the Florida Department of Transportation to purchase $200 million in insurance protection for CSX in the event of accidents. CSX would be responsible for the costs of injury and damage in accidents that only involve its trains and personnel. But FDOT would be responsible for damages involving its trains and CSX trains, when passengers or anyone else connected to the commuter operation is injured. The protection would extend to CSX even if it is found to have been negligent or irresponsible.

Amend the deal

In an analysis of the bill, the Department of Financial Services concluded: 'This broad assumption of liability would cover liability `whatever nature or degree of fault' or 'misconduct,' '' including ``gross negligence and intentional acts.''

Florida needs a commuter-rail system, and the SunRail project would be a good place to show it can be done. However, the extraordinary costs and liability exposure in this measure are too great. The deal should be amended or scrapped altogether.


http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html

[thelakelander]

I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.

[Ocklawaha]

Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09

This train has too much baggage

OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project


Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.

There is more. The cost of building the commuter line would add an additional $615 million to the overall price of the project. The costs would be divided among the federal government, which would pay half, the state, which picks up 25 percent, and five local governments, which will pay for the remaining 25 percent. In other words, all Florida taxpayers, including those in South Florida, have a stake in the project.

The legislation (SB1212 and H7009) deals primarily with providing insurance protection for the train operators, both CSX and the state -- and the terms of the deal will be extended to Tri-Rail. The problem is that the legislation assigns greater responsibility to the state for any accidents that occur and shields CSX from some of its own mistakes.

The bills require the Florida Department of Transportation to purchase $200 million in insurance protection for CSX in the event of accidents. CSX would be responsible for the costs of injury and damage in accidents that only involve its trains and personnel. But FDOT would be responsible for damages involving its trains and CSX trains, when passengers or anyone else connected to the commuter operation is injured. The protection would extend to CSX even if it is found to have been negligent or irresponsible.

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html

NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."

Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:

The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.

But to get the powerful trial lawyers lobby on board, lawmakers plan to eliminate language extending state sovereign immunity protection to companies hired to operate and maintain the line.

UNDERSTAND that the STATE (that's us folks) have Sovereign Immunity from getting the hell sued out of us in the event of a unfortunate accident.  The operators (under some contract) which could even be CSX, or Amtrak, or more likely one of many private commuter rail companies, will NOT have immunity.

In effect we are giving CSX a "no fault" insurance policy for operations at Tri-Rail, and Sun-Rail. Doesn't matter who caused the accident, you pay for yours and our operator will pay for ours.

The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.

The fact that this paragraph describes something a bit different then a track lease back (remember "CSX will then lease the corridor for some freight"). This describes a complete takeover of the privately held multibillion dollar railroad properties. A "per-car" (known as a wheel charge) or a "per-deim" fee is what one railroad charges another when off line cars pass over their tracks...

SAY WHAT OCK?

"You mean for every CSX car I see that crosses the St. Johns River Bridge downtown, the FEC must pay a fee?"

YEP! Perhaps now you understand the logic behind racing those trains North from South Florida, busting them up and sending 10 - 40 - 100 cars over that bridge night and day. The game is take em south, get em empty, and get them the hell off our tracks...FAST!

What the State is now describing is going far beyond a simple lease back of track. This is without a doubt a complete sellout by CSX of these lines.

Does that mean they won't operate trains through Orlando anymore?

Frankly they COULD just walk away from it and let the shortline FLORIDA CENTRAL take over all the local Orlando traffic. If CSX does this the result will be a disaster in Jacksonville as it would mean the end of through traffic between Jacksonville and Orlando, via the direct "A" line through Orange Park, Palatka, Deland, Sanford, etc... That could be an excuse to take down the drawbridge South of Palatka and routing all freight through Ocala. If they cut the line, we lose our Orlando - Tampa Amtrak route.

What will probably happen, if the guys at FDOT are awake, is CSX will prefer the Ocala line, but continue to use the "A" line for some services, and for capacity expansion. There would also be an AMTRAK factor that could play into this, with Amtrak perhaps owning the whole thing from JAX to Auburndale and working around the SunRail part.

So this could be a dangerous game for all of us unless we keep our eyes and ears open. I'd hate Orlando to win this system at the cost of through passenger train or freight service. We need a line to guarantee the CSX will not downgrade or seek abandonment of any part of the remaining "A" line.

THE FLORIDA C OF C IS CORRECT:

One significant transit solution Florida should build upon is the expansion of commuter rail. While commuter rail systems are being planned in several regions, the Central Florida region's proposed SunRail system provides the most immediate opportunity for construction activity that could leverage federal funding and quickly create thousands of jobs.

Not only will this project have an economic benefit for the whole stateâ€"by directly reinvesting private money in roadways, railroads and other transportation facilities throughout Floridaâ€"but it will also lay the foundation for passenger rail systems in other Florida regions desperate for multi-modal transportation solutions, including the JACKSONVILLE and Tampa Bay area.

BTW the phase I of the project is still under $700 Million dollars, less the income from moving freight cars.

So in the best scenario CSX gets cash to expand and build up front, the State goes on the limb for a Billion or so, and the freight pays it off so that the deal is free. Better Railroads, New Passenger Trains, Commuter Rail throughout and THEY PAY US, one carload at a time.

JAXPORT? Did you guys read that last line? Uh, "S" line? Springfield to Yulee? Blount Island? Neutral access? Commuter Rail income generator - FOREVER? HELLO!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

^In addition, the Sunrail project will be constructed by a Jacksonville company.  Also, a portion of the money CSX makes off this deal will be invested locally to enhance rail service at JaxPort and open the door for commuter rail in Jacksonville.

[Ocklawaha]

Hey Lake, maybe we ought to team up, join our friends at the Transportation Authority as a "Rail Task Force," and as a group.... KICK SOME BUTT! MAKE SOME WAVES! and watch JAX TAKE THE LEAD!

Whadda Ya Think?

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Lake - Sunpass can be used on toll roads, airport parking, and a number of other means, perhaps even parking meters. All at costs far less than HSR. There is not enough need for HSR at the moment.

Use Sunpass as an example of using taxpayer dollars to pay for roads and infrastructure. No rail project in Florida has ever proven itself capable of paying for itself. The Skyway is a perfect example of a Loss Leader, LOL!

[FayeforCure]

I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.

Lakelander, I tend to agree with much of what you are saying, but to tolerate a higher price tag than than necessary for any project is irresponsible use of tax payer monies. Regardless of how irresponsible we might have been in the past ( tri-rail sovereign immunity), and regardless of how much we really want the project.

I'm looking for an analogy,.......maybe it's like deciding to add a bathroom to your house even though the quote you got for that project is over-priced,  rather than moving because that would be even more expensive and benefit you less. Wouldn't you seriously want to rework your bathroom remodeling project, or are you going to be just fine with over-paying for that project because you want it so much?

It is ludicrous to put the tax payers on the hook for $200 million for gross negligence and intentional acts of a private company.

Let's not keep going on the path of socializing losses and privatizing profits for the benefit of private industry.

[thelakelander]

Lake - Sunpass can be used on toll roads, airport parking, and a number of other means, perhaps even parking meters. All at costs far less than HSR. There is not enough need for HSR at the moment.

Use Sunpass as an example of using taxpayer dollars to pay for roads and infrastructure. No rail project in Florida has ever proven itself capable of paying for itself. The Skyway is a perfect example of a Loss Leader, LOL!

Unfortunately, Sunpass and roads don't spur infill, transit oriented or sustainable development in areas where developed infrastructure already exists.  Whether its an over reliance on roads or rail, there is no end all solution to transportation.  The most livable places have a good mix of several transportation options.

However, I do agree that there is not a need to spend billions implementing HSR, as currently drawn up in Florida.  There are cheaper options that will work better for our communities that can be implemented.

Btw, I don't know if I would classify the skyway as rail.  Its a horizontal elevator.  However, then again, I don't know why think public infrastructure projects should directly pay for themselves.  For example, Tampa's streetcar does not directly pay for itself, but it has spurred over a billion in transit oriented development along its path.  Construction aside, that's a couple thousand residents, retailers, hotels and restaurants adding millions to the tax rolls on an annual basis.  I'd say that's a decent return on a 7 year old, $32 million system.

[thelakelander]

I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.

Lakelander, I tend to agree with much of what you are saying, but to tolerate a higher price tag than than necessary for any project is irresponsible use of tax payer monies. Regardless of how irresponsible we might have been in the past ( tri-rail sovereign immunity), and regardless of how much we really want the project.

What should the price be?  Is there a similar example of a State buying a first class quality rail line from a private business for a cheaper price in the last couple of years?  At this point, its hard to say something is bad, unless there are other similar examples out there on the table to prove that its true.

I'm looking for an analogy,.......maybe it's like deciding to add a bathroom to your house even though the quote you got for that project is over-priced,  rather than moving because that would be even more expensive and benefit you less. Wouldn't you seriously want to rework your bathroom remodeling project, or are you going to be just fine with over-paying for that project because you want it so much?

To determine if your quote is overpriced, you have to have a few other quotes or examples showing that it can be done cheaper.  I'm not saying that the Orlando deal is not expensive.  I'm just saying before we can deem it as overly expensive, there should be some existing examples on the table proving that it can be done for less.

It is ludicrous to put the tax payers on the hook for $200 million for gross negligence and intentional acts of a private company.

Isn't this the same deal that private railroads require for other systems?  Or is this Florida deal different.  Do you have any examples that we can throw out in the open and discuss?

Let's not keep going on the path of socializing losses and privatizing profits for the benefit of private industry.

Definitely, not advocating that.  Unfortunately, we don't have a publicly owned state rail line providing freight service to our major ports and industries throughout the state.  After growing up in Central Florida, I think the freight and overpass improvements to the "S" line may be more important to the health of Florida's future than Orlando's passenger rail service.

[BridgeTroll]

Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.

The above paragraph caught my eye and the one sentence in particular.  Is the statement true?  Are there comparisons available?  If true why is this so expensive?

[thelakelander]

^That's the problem.  When you see a quote like that, it should be followed up with some data proving that its correct.  Without the factual data, it can be passed off as a number thrown out there by someone who may be against the project for undisclosed reasons that really have nothing to do with the costs. 

[Ocklawaha]

Inagine CSX wants 60+ miles of I-95.  They would have the full power of the State to take it. Don't worry  we could all just use I-75. Does anyone see the mess this would make of our highways? If so, then why does everyone want them to just walk away from their MAIN LINE?

PS: The Florida HSR plan stinks to high heavens and I WON'T support it in it's current form.

OCKLAWAHA

[BridgeTroll]

^That's the problem.  When you see a quote like that, it should be followed up with some data proving that its correct.  Without the factual data, it can be passed off as a number thrown out there by someone who may be against the project for undisclosed reasons that really have nothing to do with the costs.   

No doubt Lake and I agree.  In order to refute statements like that we must be able to show facts to the contrary and hold the senator accountable.

[FayeforCure]

Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.

The above paragraph caught my eye and the one sentence in particular.  Is the statement true?  Are there comparisons available?  If true why is this so expensive?

It's true, and I'll get you the pdf list of all rail project costs in the US, as soon as I find it again.

Meanwhile the one piece that is easy to fix is to have CSX be responsible for its own gross negligence and intentional acts.

Commuter rail rolls on . . . to failure?
By PAMELA HASTEROK
Dec. 22, 2008

The life or death of the rail line hinges on who's responsible for accidents. The state is buying the tracks for the passenger line from the freight giant CSX.
CSX plans to keep running freight trains on the tracks, too. If an accident occurs, CSX is demanding that neither it nor its contractors be held liable.
State transportation officials agreed. Lawmakers didn't.

They weren't pleased, either, that officials negotiated the deal in secret without the knowledge of most legislators. Unless a compromise emerges over who pays for accidents and their legal fallout, commuter rail will die next year, too.

Forget the happy talk you'll hear from local lawmakers and council members who say everything will work out.
Powerful representatives can probably pass the project through the House on sheer force of will. That won't work in the Senate.
Enough senators have enough doubts to say no, as they did before, to saddling the state with bills for an accident that is the fault of a private company.

"I don't want the state to be in a situation where it has to take care of every accident and every lawsuit when we're talking about a company that makes a lot of money," said Sen. Jim King, who represents part of Volusia County.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Columnists/Fresh/colFRESH122208.htm

[FayeforCure]

Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09

This train has too much baggage

OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project

Commuter trains can be a great way to move a lot of people from one place to another, especially when the trains are run efficiently and intersect with dense population areas. This is why the idea of a central Florida commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, which would pass through busy Orlando, is so appealing. However, the appeal of the proposed 61-mile SunRail project under consideration in the Legislature loses much of its luster because of its high sticker price and its overly generous indemnity provisions.

Floridians, pay attention

Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal......

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html

Here is the pdf that substantiates "the highest price ever paid for rail in the United States," .....I knew I had seen it somewhere 

http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf