The Next Mayor?

[BridgeTroll]

Chris... someone will ALWAYS have a different set of priorities.  The road system will always need improving, the river will always need cleaning, and the transportation system will always need upgrades.  10 Million to expand the zoo is well within governments "priorities".  How about the Symphony?  Veterans Memorial?  These are hardly priorities using your comparisons... the river is till dirty...the road system fubar... Why in gods name did we build a coliseum or fund a Symphony?

Good job.  You found three links telling us that the St Johns is polluted.  What you need to do is back up your assertion that the septic tank removal program funded did not use the funds as intended.  We are all well aware that the St Johns is polluted.

That was my whole point! There's never any reason to go there, because there's never anything going on.

You say the same thing about the Landing and Downtown... I am beginning to see a pattern...

This is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds

Are you now the arbiter of those funds?

and only 30 people are going to go

Again... do you have facts to back up your assertion that only 30 people will attend these events?

That doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up

Not sure they bought anything... I think the Feds turned it over to the city.

Even the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.

Another assertion that we have to just take your word for.  I mean it must be true... but...

http://www.jaa.aero/AirSys/CF.aspx

     
Tenants
 
Name Contact
Jacksonville JetPort  (904) 317-6550 
Boeing Company (904) 317-2400 
Division of Forestry (904) 573-4902 
Flightstar Aircraft Services, Inc.  (904) 741-0300 
Florida Army National Guard (904) 573-2300 
Florida Community College at Jacksonville (904) 997-2800 
Jacksonville Fire & Rescue  (904) 573-3179
Jet Turbine Service, Inc.  (904) 779-6881
Logistic Services International, LSI (904) 771-2100 
Fleet Readiness Center, South East (FRC/SE) (904) 317-5500
Robinson Van-Vuren & Associates, RVA (ATC) (904) 779-1805 
L3 Communications  (904) 771-3055
US Coast Guard (904) 778-0846

 

[Jason]

One question: What administration is managing the BJP currently?

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris... someone will ALWAYS have a different set of priorities.  The road system will always need improving, the river will always need cleaning, and the transportation system will always need upgrades.  10 Million to expand the zoo is well within governments "priorities". 

No it's not.

Not when you're already robbing peter to pay paul, not when you're facing massive education funding shortfalls, and not in this economy. I'm sorry, but that is not an intelligent or rational "priority".

Yeah, between educating the kids or giving a freebie to a billionaire NFL team owner, I know what my choice would be...

How about the Symphony?  Veterans Memorial?  These are hardly priorities using your comparisons... the river is till dirty...the road system fubar... Why in gods name did we build a coliseum or fund a Symphony?

First off, the symphony had nothing whatsoever to do with the Better Jacksonville Plan, which is the subject of this discussion. So before we go any farther, please post evidence that links the Symphony with BJP...thanks!

And in case you hadn't noticed, the symphony had its public funding cut years ago, and is now privately funded. And since you apparently don't know how to use google, let me give you the link:

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=48992

So, since you brought it up, it appears that Mr. Weaver's handout did in fact get prioritized over the symphony.

Good job.  You found three links telling us that the St Johns is polluted.

3 not enough for you?

http://www.savethestjohns.org/

http://www.nbbd.com/godo/StJohns.html

http://realtytimes.com/rtpages/19991230_river.htm

http://www.coj.net/About+Jacksonville/St+Johns+River.htm

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/northeast/stjohns/TMDL/tmdl.htm

Why do you keep asking for more links, when you evidently don't even read the ones I've posted?

What you need to do is back up your assertion that the septic tank removal program funded did not use the funds as intended.  We are all well aware that the St Johns is polluted.

I don't need to do anything.

You have backed up none of your silly arguments with facts. If you're so convinced I'm wrong, then why don't you practice what you preach, and let's see you provide ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL to contradict what I've stated here.

So for starters, how about you provide proof that the BJP has funded all the initiatives for which it was authorized (including this one)? Oh wait, you can't, since it didn't happen...

You say the same thing about the Landing and Downtown...

Yup, and I was right on that one too!

The Landing is a complete flop, and will remain so until the City makes good on its 20+ year old promise to provide parking.

This is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds

Are you now the arbiter of those funds?

As a voting taxpayer, yes, I am in fact an arbiter of those funds. In case you hadn't noticed, that's how our system of government works.

and only 30 people are going to go

Again... do you have facts to back up your assertion that only 30 people will attend these events?

Quit trying to side-step the point. You made several baseless and inaccurate assertions, and tried to say how the Equestrian Center is so busy, etc. I then posted their calendar showing that FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR, they only have 15 events planned, and none of them seem to be very large...

So now that you're eating crow, you're just trying to conveniently re-direct the discussion...

So answer me this. Do you think those 15 events are worth a $30 million dollar initial expenditure, plus millions in ongoing annual maintenance costs? If so, please provide evidence backing up your claims...

That doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up

Not sure they bought anything... I think the Feds turned it over to the city.

Are you denying the City has, to date, spent $180+ million on Cecil Field? If so, then please follow your own advice, and back it up with evidence. I've already posted evidence establishing that figure...as I'll address below:

Even the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.

Another assertion that we have to just take your word for.  I mean it must be true... but...

Do you really not bother to read before replying? I already posted this in this very thread:

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html

And here's another one:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-14-baseclosing_x.htm

I'm correct, and nobody needs to "take my word for it". I have backed up what I've said, where's your evidence?

Tenants
 
Name Contact
Jacksonville JetPort  (904) 317-6550 
Boeing Company (904) 317-2400 
Division of Forestry (904) 573-4902 
Flightstar Aircraft Services, Inc.  (904) 741-0300 
Florida Army National Guard (904) 573-2300 
Florida Community College at Jacksonville (904) 997-2800 
Jacksonville Fire & Rescue  (904) 573-3179
Jet Turbine Service, Inc.  (904) 779-6881
Logistic Services International, LSI (904) 771-2100 
Fleet Readiness Center, South East (FRC/SE) (904) 317-5500
Robinson Van-Vuren & Associates, RVA (ATC) (904) 779-1805 
L3 Communications  (904) 771-3055
US Coast Guard (904) 778-0846

Again, you've got to be kidding me.

A: It's a 4400 acre $180 million dollar complex, and it only has a whopping 13 tenants. Thanks for proving my entire point for me.

B: And out of your list of 13 tenants, did you not notice that SEVEN of them are all government or City agencies? LMFAO!!!!!

So by your own acknowledgment, after $180 million dollars, the place has only a whopping 6 commercial tenants in it...

[BridgeTroll]

  Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse.

[ChriswUfGator]

Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse.

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion. 

[BridgeTroll]

All your links do is tell us the water is polluted... the BJP plan attempted to cutail a portion of that pollution by devoting money to septic tank removal.  I think this was a worthy goal.  You apparently do not.

The symphony is an example Chris...  Are you saying government should not fund the arts because we still have potholes?  Arts, libraries, zoos, museums, etc are not necessities... but they most certainly do have a place in the funding food chain.

Your opinion that the Landing is a flop is just that Chris... an opinion

As for Cecil Field... 180 mil is a small cost for a facility like that.  It will repay itself over and over in the coming years.  The links you provided say nothing about Jax "throwing in the towel" or trying to get out from under it.  This one http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html shows how determined they are to make it work... the usatoday one says nothing regarding this discussion.

In short... I am eating no crow... but I do see a couple of black feathers sticking out of your mouth.

[ChriswUfGator]

All your links do is tell us the water is polluted... the BJP plan attempted to cutail a portion of that pollution by devoting money to septic tank removal.

Ok, so taking your own advice, where are your own links and evidence contradicting anything I've posted?

*crickets*chirping*

I think this was a worthy goal.  You apparently do not.

I think that, if you have a plan where $2.25 billion is allocated for city-wide improvements, ranging from silly stuff like an NFL-related Zoo exhibit, all the way up to basic infrastructure needs like roadways and interchanges, and then you run into funding problems and have to pick which projects to complete, then I'd prioritize it so the most necessary things get done first.

BJP's administrators plainly failed in that regard.

The symphony is an example

No it's not an example. The symphony is a privately funded organization.

It has nothing to do with BJP, and isn't funded by the City. Apples and Oranges. End of story.

Are you saying government should not fund the arts because we still have potholes?  Arts, libraries, zoos, museums, etc are not necessities... but they most certainly do have a place in the funding food chain.

If you only have X amount of dollars and you have to decide how to spread them around, then education, transportation, and infrastructure should clearly be top-priority. Not promotional Zoo-exhibits that should have been privately funded, and equestrian centers that sit empty most of the time.

You keep acting like you don't have to pick between things, but in reality, YOU DO. The BJP wasn't even close to completed, because they ran out of money. At a certain point, they began ignoring legitimate infrastructure and transportation needs, and funneling the money to insignificant crap that we could have done without.

Your opinion that the Landing is a flop is just that Chris... an opinion

No it's a fact.

It's a commercial building, it's designed to make a profit. So...DOES IT? NO.

There you go. This is not a matter of opinion. If the thing can't turn a profit, it's a flop. End of story.

As for Cecil Field... 180 mil is a small cost for a facility like that.  It will repay itself over and over in the coming years.

$180 million that is desperately needed for education and infrastructure, to make some silly office park that's a total flop and only has 6 tenants, is NOT a "small cost".

As to whether it will repay itself over and over in the coming years, they've been saying that since the early 1990s and it hasn't happened yet.

I guess you got your crystal ball out, Ms. Cleo?

The links you provided say nothing about Jax "throwing in the towel" or trying to get out from under it. 

Then explain this:

"After consultations with the Jacksonville Airport Authority, Mayor (John) Peyton has committed to the BRAC Commission that necessary property issues concerning current tenants at Cecil Field can be resolved to permit complete turnover of all property to the (Department of Defense)," Bush wrote.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/4798927/detail.html

Oh yeah, really sounds like the City was really trying to hold onto Cecil with clenched fists...NOT. LMFAO 

This one http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html shows how determined they are to make it work... the usatoday one says nothing regarding this discussion.

They're so 'determined' that they tried giving it back to the Navy, and are now "seeking strategic alternatives" with private developers?

Read between the lines, man. You may as well stick a fork in it...it's done. Next step is a private giveaway.

In short... I am eating no crow... but I do see a couple of black feathers sticking out of your mouth.

Only if you happen to be looking in the mirror. And I'm still waiting on any of YOUR evidence...

[vicupstate]

The precursor to the BJP was the River City Renaisance under Mayor Ed Austin.  It paid for the construction of the T-U Center for the Performing Arts, minus the T-U's contribution.  The symphony plays there and has since it opened.  I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility. But whatever it might be, it is but a drop in the bucket compared to the debt service and operating expenses on a building of that size. 

So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.  Bring jobs to the area was the entire purpose of the city taking possession in the first place, to replace those lost when the Navy left.

The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million.  The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

The Hayden Burns library is smaller than the library in my birthplace, Florence SC, population 130,000.  Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

[Charles Hunter]

One of the points that BJP has not delivered was the Atlantic / Kernan intersection - construction has started.  Down the road, Beach / Kernan has opened (although work continues).

You really seem hung up on the "Jaguar" exhibit.  Would you be just as incensed if the recently opened Asian exhibit was built with $10M BJP money?  Or the Great Apes?

[ChriswUfGator]

So, first, you say:

I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

[ChriswUfGator]

You really seem hung up on the "Jaguar" exhibit.  Would you be just as incensed if the recently opened Asian exhibit was built with $10M BJP money?  Or the Great Apes?

Yes, I would.

When you have teachers being laid off, 20-year County employees being laid off, and schools asking parents to bring toilet paper and supplies because they can't afford them, then clearly that money could be better spent elsewhere...

[BridgeTroll]

So just what exactly are you arguing Chris? 

That the BLP did not fulfill all its goals?  CHECK... I agree
That BJP fulfilled NONE of it goals?  Oops... I disagree.
That BJP wasted some money?... BINGO... right there with ya bro.
That BJP was a complete and total waste of time and money?... whoa... not me

Here is the wikipedia again for the BJP...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

I happen to agree with your republican ideas about tax and spend.  Conservatives like you and I hate being taxed for wasteful projects and understand that giving more money to government is just giving em license to spend more.

We agree on more than we disagree Chris... 

[ChriswUfGator]

So just what exactly are you arguing Chris? 

That the BLP did not fulfill all its goals?  CHECK... I agree
That BJP fulfilled NONE of it goals?  Oops... I disagree.
That BJP wasted some money?... BINGO... right there with ya bro.
That BJP was a complete and total waste of time and money?... whoa... not me

Here is the wikipedia again for the BJP...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

I happen to agree with your republican ideas about tax and spend.  Conservatives like you and I hate being taxed for wasteful projects and understand that giving more money to government is just giving em license to spend more.

We agree on more than we disagree Chris... 

I am a weirdo, politically. My ideas about the size of government and spending and taxation run very conservative, but my social ideas are liberal. I don't see the sense in wasteful spending, and I don't see the sense in trying to dictate how everyone else lives their life either. So neither major party has really been a 100% a fit for me.

And no, you're right, I'm not saying the BJP accomplished nothing, because that's not true. And in the context of the economic boomtimes that existed when it was all planned, then I have to admit the Courthouse and Library probably made sense.

But my dislike for BJP revolves around 4 things:

1 - They canceled (or delayed so long that they may as well have been canceled) the interchange and road projects, including some of the biggest bottlenecks in the city.

2 - Out of $100m slotted for building public transit, they did nothing except repainting some lanes on Blanding to be part of "BRT", at a cost of what? $2m-3m. Big whoop. The rest of the money was never invested and, I suspect, is gone.

3 - Cecil Commerce Center and the Equestrian Center are wastes. That property should have just gone straight to private developers. If that had happened, the private guys would be making money by now, and the City would still have a spare $180m. It's a win-win, and that was the proper way to handle it. But as it sits, it's a boondoggle.

4 - The courthouse. I don't even need to explain this one. I'm just sick of even watching that mess unfold at this point. It is sickening that you can waste that kind of money, before we've even turned a shovelful of dirt.

The only thing that gets my gander worse than the courthouse is the Shipyards...I still wanna know where I sign up for my free $40million?

But other than those 4 things, the rest of it has probably been helpful.

[JeffreyS]

The city was not laying people off when it invested in the zoo. I think your wrong about the zoo as not a worthy investment in our quality of life. I do think it is an opinion issue and it is hard to win that argument. I love the direction the zoo has taken and the Jaguar exhibit was the catalyst for that. The budget problems this city is experiencing have not the result of investing too much in community projects.

[JeffreyS]

I do believe not investing in education has hurt Duvals revenue base. Young families such as mine take our tax money south to better schools. I have now decided on private school and want to come back to Duval where my business is. Most of my neighbors work in Duval but pay there property taxes and sales taxes south of the county line. Schools are almost exclusively the reason. Any county visionary enough to have used this year as a chance to prove they were serious about education and found the money would have become the target of those families.