The Next Mayor?

[tufsu1]

Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse.

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion. 

wrong...for example you ask about several interchanges as if they haven't happened....a quick drive around town would show that Atlantic/Southside was finished last year....and as you noted, Beach/Kernan is just about done...the BJP is a 10+ year program and we're only in Year 8

Any questions?

[ChriswUfGator]

Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse.

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion. 

wrong...for example you ask about several interchanges as if they haven't happened....a quick drive around town would show that Atlantic/Southside was finished last year....and as you noted, Beach/Kernan is just about done...the BJP is a 10+ year program and we're only in Year 8

Any questions?

Are you serious?

There were 7 new interchanges that were supposed to be built, and by year 8 of what's only a 10-year plan, you're acknowledging that they've only started two of them.

How exactly does that make me wrong?

Meanwhile, the Jaguar exhibit went up quick, so did the Equestrian Center, and they've had no trouble wasting money on the phantom Courthouse that we'll probably never see in our lifetime, or spending almost $200m on facilities for Cecil Commerce Center's whopping 6 tenants.

Look, I'm sorry if you don't like my statements, but I've more than backed up my position with evidence. Large swaths of this spending program have been so poorly handled that it's sickening. And with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

[BridgeTroll]

And with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

County employees and teachers were never part of the plan.  They cannot add new things to the plan if they have not finished the the original list of planned things.  I think the key word here is "plan"... not mandate or requirement.

[ChriswUfGator]

And with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

County employees and teachers were never part of the plan.  They cannot add new things to the plan if they have not finished the the original list of planned things.  I think the key word here is "plan"... not mandate or requirement.

Well...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

Why is there this need to spend every dime available? I don't get it.

$h!t happens in life, at every level, including the government level. All these counties and cities who were thrown into a budgetary death spiral just because of a 10% drop in tax revenues really boggle my mind. There is nothing saved for a rainy day. There is no emergency cash pool. There is no "excess" revenue in the annual budgets, to where the City can survive as-is if revenues fall off. They spend every damned dime!

Then the economy turns south, which shouldn't be a real surprise since it's cyclical, and every day you start reading about firing teachers, laying off county employees, closing schools, scrapping needed infrastructure projects, etc.

What I'm saying is, it wouldn't kill them to not spend every dime of BJP money. The referendum could be re-presented, authorizing them to use any remaining funds for education, etc. Who's not going to vote for that, instead of a ridiculous $400+ million dollar courthouse?

But instead, it's always a game to figure out how to spend every possible dime, otherwise people might want you to lower taxes...

[BridgeTroll]

Well...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

The state and feds are just as bad but on a much larger scale.  Give em more money... they will find something to spend it on.  It is inevitable.

[ChriswUfGator]

Well...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

The state and feds are just as bad but on a much larger scale.  Give em more money... they will find something to spend it on.  It is inevitable.

I know, it's so irritating. I think they are all afraid that, if they don't spend every penny, people will say "Great, you obviously don't need all of it, so let's lower taxes..." The whole setup just promotes waste.

I think people are smarter than government gives them credit for. If they said "We need to establish a reserve fund for a rainy day, and there also needs to be X% of tax revenue that is "surplus" so that, in the event an economic swing occurs, we don't have to fire everybody and cancel projects", then I honestly think people would understand and be happy about it.

But politicians no longer respect their constituents, and their constituents no longer respect them either. It's just a big game, that we're all paying for...

[tufsu1]

because it takes about 8-10 years just to get through the planning, design, permitting, and ROW acquisition phases....so even if the tax program is only 10 years long, it will take more like 15 years to get everything constructed!

and so you don't continue thinking this is a Jacksonville problem, the same thing has happened in Tallahassee and Pinellas County with their $0.01 salex tax projects.

[ChriswUfGator]

because it takes about 8-10 years just to get through the planning, design, permitting, and ROW acquisition phases....so even if the tax program is only 10 years long, it will take more like 15 years to get everything constructed!

and so you don't continue thinking this is a Jacksonville problem, the same thing has happened in Tallahassee and Pinellas County with their $0.01 salex tax projects.

It doesn't take 10 years to build a bridge...

[Charles Hunter]

But the "building" is only one part of the entire project.  It took about 4 years of construction work to build the new Fuller Warren.  Buying the needed land - right of way - usually takes one to two years.  Design, is probably another couple years.  Getting permits ... that can take years, say 2.  4+2+2+2=10

That big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

I don't think tufsu was saying it was impossible, I think he was refuting the comment that all the BJP should have been finished already.

[Charles Hunter]

Regarding the assertion that voters would embrace politicians who voted to establish a reserve fund.  Both the City and State elected officials (Council and Legislature) have been raiding - using - reserve funds to meet current expenses for the last few years.  The current Legislature is doing just that again this year.  All so they don't have to raise taxes because the cost of providing services has increased.  Or not have to reduce or eliminate "wasteful" services that the voters like to have.  And they get re-elected running on "no tax" platforms.  So, I do not share your optimism that voters would "be understand and be happy about it."

The folks on this board might embrace that (most of us), but we are not the "average" voter (read the TU forums for comparison).

[ChriswUfGator]

But the "building" is only one part of the entire project.  It took about 4 years of construction work to build the new Fuller Warren.  Buying the needed land - right of way - usually takes one to two years.  Design, is probably another couple years.  Getting permits ... that can take years, say 2.  4+2+2+2=10

That big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

I don't think tufsu was saying it was impossible, I think he was refuting the comment that all the BJP should have been finished already.

Lol, who's even bothering with "finished" at this point. For all but 2 of the 7 interchanges, I'd settle for "started"...

[Charles Hunter]

I think you need to reserve as much of your wrath for the folks employed by the former administration who came up with lowball cost estimates on the BJP projects - as you have on the current administration (and JTA) for failing to complete the projects.

Say your brother-in-law, using a $9.99 "home architect" computer program on his PC estimated your new house would cost $100,000 to build, so you budget $100,000.
Then you hire a construction contractor to start working on the house, and discover you need to buy some more property because it won't fit on the lot you have now.  Then you discover it will actually cost $175,000 to build.  Who is at fault?  Your construction contractor because he can't deliver on the unrealistic budget?

[ChriswUfGator]

I think you need to reserve as much of your wrath for the folks employed by the former administration who came up with lowball cost estimates on the BJP projects - as you have on the current administration (and JTA) for failing to complete the projects.

Say your brother-in-law, using a $9.99 "home architect" computer program on his PC estimated your new house would cost $100,000 to build, so you budget $100,000.
Then you hire a construction contractor to start working on the house, and discover you need to buy some more property because it won't fit on the lot you have now.  Then you discover it will actually cost $175,000 to build.  Who is at fault?  Your construction contractor because he can't deliver on the unrealistic budget?

You know, I thought about that. And I was even inclined to feel that way at first...

But then the feds came along and built their huge 20-story Federal Courthouse for $84 million, and got it done under-budget and ahead-of-schedule. And that kind of changed my perspective, and took away the benefit of the doubt I was giving the City.

Judging by comparable projects that were actually completed, the original Courthouse budget of $190 million should have been MORE than sufficient, let alone $400 million. That's absolutely insane...

[Charles Hunter]

I hope my post did not seem to be absolving the current Administration of blame for cost over-runs and delays - far from it.  However, little attention seems to be paid to the low-ball cost estimates in the original BJP, made by the prior Administration.  If their estimates had been more realistic - and included all costs (such as the property needed), there would be two results: the BJP list would have been shorter, and there would be fewer cost over-runs.

We should have had the Federal Court House estimators work on the BJP list!

[mtraininjax]

That big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

Actually, the side ramps over I-95 were built in the 1980s/90s, well before the interchange money was available, as part of a daisy growing project by FDOT, or some other craziness, all I remember was they were there long before the interchange project.

If their estimates had been more realistic - and included all costs (such as the property needed)

Well, I have a story for you. You know how your brother-in-law hires a contractor who says he can do the work, that he knows in front of him for 100,000? He comes back to you in 6 months and says that the project will be 175,000, because the ground below is contaminated and the dirt has to be hauled off to be burned, because it is contaminated with Ash from 40 years ago? Something that the guys who sat in the administration offices were never asked to review, because the federal EPA guidelines at the time were not the same as they are today? You mean, those kinds of costs that respond to bonehead DC codes that get enacted from the time the beancounters propose a project, to when it gets implemented?