Tony Allegretti hired as Market Manager of the Riverside Arts Market

[ChriswUfGator]

Great observation.  In fact, that's what other "first tier" cities do without complaint or resistance.

I hate to enlighten you, but Portland is hardly a "Tier 1" city by most folks' definition...

And as to the true "cities", like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, Boston, etc., I've rarely found myself confronting this "preachy" routine that you and obie1 are engaging in, while judgmentally determining what will and won't be 'enlightening' to others.

It's evidently yourselves that need enlightening, as to the value of having tolerance for the preferences and individual choices of others...

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

If, as you say, having Wine and Beer WOULD bring more people out, then it WOULD affect the event, because that's evidently what would bring them out - according to you.  How can you say it has nothing to do with it, if they wouldn't be there if drinks weren't a part of the event.  You've contradicted yourself in one sentence.

I certainly didn't contradict myself one bit!

Though I do have to give you props for giving it the ole' college try and dragging out what has got to be the most fallaciously 'challenged' logic I've seen in awhile...

I said that simply serving beer & wine should not come to 'define' the entire event. Specifically, this is what I said:

I don't see why the mere side-note of serving beer & wine would necessarily come to define the entire event

I then said:

The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out.

I never said that having more people wouldn't "affect" the event, in fact, I didn't even use that word at all, you did...and are now trying (unsuccessfully) to put your own words my mouth.

So why don't you re-read what I actually wrote. If you truly believe those statements are somehow contradictory, then I'm guessing you've got other issues.

Chris:

Let's make this simple.  Short questions, one word answers.  You said, quoting:

"The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out."

You said a drink definately DOES bring more people out.  I presume that's because they can get a drink there? 

If there's a group, and you add people to the group, those added people have something to do with how the group is, right?  Isn't it a fundamental law of social dynamics?

If there was a "no open container law" in public, would you agree there would be differences in the following events?:
- Art Walk
- Beaches Festivals
- Jaguar Football games
- Florida/Georgia
- 4th of July Celebration
- Christmas in Avondale
- Dancing in the Streets (Atlantic/Neptune Beach)

No challenged logic, just simple questions based in your comment.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

Great observation.  In fact, that's what other "first tier" cities do without complaint or resistance.

I hate to enlighten you, but Portland is hardly a "Tier 1" city by most folks' definition...

And as to the true "cities", like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, Boston, etc., I've rarely found myself confronting this "preachy" routine that you and obie1 are engaging in, while judgmentally determining what will and won't be 'enlightening' to others.

It's evidently yourselves that need enlightening, as to the value of having tolerance for the preferences and individual choices of others...

No one is being "preachy" here, especially not me.  Believe me, I have no place to preach to anyone.

Have you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times? 

Portland may be the quintessential case study for enlightened urban development. It's probably one of the LEAST preachy cities I've ever seen, as freedom of open speech and liberal thought is celebrated openly there. 

You mentioned Seattle as a "first tier" city, and that's what I was referring to with my reference.  Have you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times?  Seattle has major festivals and events including Seafair, Bite of Seattle, multiple major 4th of July fireworks, Seahawks games, etc. - and in no occasion is strolling with an open container allowed in any case.  At most, it's oriented around contained "Beer Garden" environments.  Seattle is another of the least preachy cities and most liberal in terms of freedom of speech and action.

You also mentioned San Francisco.  At the Blues Festival in Golden Gate Park two years ago you'd NEVER be allowed to walk around between stages with a beer (I tried), and in fact, I saw an officer nearly arrest a woman who resisted putting out her cigarette while in the park (with no one near her), because it violates the smoking in a public place law.  Yet, try to walk out the concourse from a Jaguars game - you're going through a gauntlet of smokers.  Would you consider San Francisco a "preachy" city?

[BridgeTroll]

There will be many Saturdays to come and many more opinions that RAM will have to sift through.  I do not think a wine tasting booth or a small "Bold City" booth open from noon to four would detract from the event but I would not be surprised if we never see it there.  I myself would not care one way or the other.  I did speak to more than a few who asked if there was a wine or beer vendor.

Someone brought "culture and cultural events" into the argument... Virtually all events from plays to the symphony serve alcohol in the lobby.  Nothing monster trucky or thirsty thursdayish about those cultural events.  There are many reasons to not have alcohol at RAM... culture is not one of them.

[ChriswUfGator]

You said a drink definately DOES bring more people out.  I presume that's because they can get a drink there?  

No, it's not necessarily that directly related.

I think, overall, some folks would have a more enjoyable experience if they could have a glass of wine or a beer, and this will probably yield more repeat visits by a decently large percentage of people.

Plus, bear in mind, what I'm suggesting is exploring the aspect of winemaking and beermaking as "Art", as part of the event, and bringing in community members who are engaged in these creative enterprises locally. This is at least as relevant as selling t-shirts and vegetables at an "Art" market, wouldn't you say?

And if this were accomplished, it would bring out people whose primary purpose would probably be to taste the multiple varieties of wine and beer produced by the local vendors, and who may go on to buy other things for sale while they're there.

If there's a group, and you add people to the group, those added people have something to do with how the group is, right?  Isn't it a fundamental law of social dynamics?

Nope.

Simply adding more people has nothing to do with changing the focus of the event, or redefining it. This is where your logic is ridiculous. If I bring 1,000 extra people to a LSO concert, it's not going to go *poof* and turn into an Elton John concert. LOL. Seriously, WTF?

The event is what it is. You're really scraping the bottom of the argument barrel here...

If there was a "no open container law" in public, would you agree there would be differences in the following events?:
- Art Walk
- Beaches Festivals
- Jaguar Football games
- Florida/Georgia
- 4th of July Celebration
- Christmas in Avondale
- Dancing in the Streets (Atlantic/Neptune Beach)

No, I don't there'd be any difference at all. The Jaguars will still play football, regardless of whether beer is sold. The Florida/Georgia game will still be played, regardless of whether I can get a glass of wine in the stadium. Christmas will still happen, regardless of whether people can have eggnog or not...

Honestly, WTF, you've got to be kidding me with this?

You can't sit there and tell me with a straight face that allowing people to have a glass of wine is really going to change the whole character of an event. That's ludicrous.

And as to any potential side-effects (because I know when I want to get plastered and cause a scene, the first thing that would cross my mind is going to the Arts Market!), it in all likelihood will make no difference whatsoever. The people who act like idiots will act like idiots, regardless. And the people who enjoy the event will continue to do so, regardless. And the events ARE STILL WHAT THEY ARE, regardless.

I think in this case, you have the opportunity to bring out more people, for the reasons I listed above. But no, this isn't going to "change" or redefine the event. It will just make it better for everyone, since there will be more folks spending money there...

No challenged logic, just simple questions based in your comment.

Sorry, but your logic was challenged when you asserted I'm contradicting myself by suggesting that you can serve wine and not redefine or ruin the event...

I feel like I'm testifying at the Wickersham Commission.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

There will be many Saturdays to come and many more opinions that RAM will have to sift through.  I do not think a wine tasting booth or a small "Bold City" booth open from noon to four would detract from the event but I would not be surprised if we never see it there.  I myself would not care one way or the other.  I did speak to more than a few who asked if there was a wine or beer vendor.

Someone brought "culture and cultural events" into the argument... Virtually all events from plays to the symphony serve alcohol in the lobby.  Nothing monster trucky or thirsty thursdayish about those cultural events.  There are many reasons to not have alcohol at RAM... culture is not one of them.

No problem for ticketed public events in venues such as theaters, etc.  I'm only talking about public/community events in open public places.

[ProjectMaximus]

If I bring 1,000 extra people to a LSO concert, it's not going to go *poof* and turn into an Elton John concert.

Props for the LSO reference!!

[blizz01]

Have you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times?  

Who cares?

Have you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times?  

Who cares?

OK - so I WAS in San Francisco recently (no need qualify it by having to reflect on when & how many times) & we visited the Ferry Plaza Farmer's Market on a Saturday morning - to me, THIS is what made it intriguing:

In preparation for a trip to Golden Gate Park, we purchased the following:  artisan bread(s), artisan cheese, olive oil, fresh cold cuts, fresh vegetables, a bar of chocolate, a hand-made blanket, & lastly, a hand-made basket in which to tote everything in - Oops, almost forgot, A BOTTLE OF WINE TOO!  The experience at Ferry Plaza was quite similar to that of RAM, with the exception of permanent businesses occupying the inner building.  There weren't hammered hooligans or shooter girls in sight - not even the slightest vibe or hint of "monster truck" culture as you so subtly put it.  Everything was local for the most part, & I even enjoyed an Anchor Steam.  Maybe the beer & wine was to accommodate people like me that can't seem to abstain - who knows(?).......There IS indeed a time & place for EVERYTHING.....

[ChriswUfGator]

No one is being "preachy" here, especially not me. 

Yes you are.

Have you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times? 

Once, in 2002. I wasn't that impressed.

You mentioned Seattle as a "first tier" city, and that's what I was referring to with my reference.  Have you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times? 

First visited in 1994 with my parents, and have been back every year or two since. Visits ranged from one day while waiting to board a cruise ship, up to a week or 10 days. I very well may move there when I graduate law school this fall.

Seattle has major festivals and events including Seafair, Bite of Seattle, multiple major 4th of July fireworks, Seahawks games, etc.

Wow, you can use google too!

and in no occasion is strolling with an open container allowed in any case.  At most, it's oriented around contained "Beer Garden" environments.

Now you're REALLY doing some fancy footwork to dance around the issue...

Answer me this: Is beer and wine served these events? I think we both know the answer...

You're just trying to re-phrase it so it comes off as though your incorrect statements are correct.

To wit: http://www.biteofseattle.com/ent/piano/

Seattle is another of the least preachy cities and most liberal in terms of freedom of speech and action.

I know, that was my original point when I brought it up...

You also mentioned San Francisco.  At the Blues Festival in Golden Gate Park two years ago you'd NEVER be allowed to walk around between stages with a beer (I tried), and in fact, I saw an officer nearly arrest a woman who resisted putting out her cigarette while in the park (with no one near her), because it violates the smoking in a public place law.  Yet, try to walk out the concourse from a Jaguars game - you're going through a gauntlet of smokers.  Would you consider San Francisco a "preachy" city?

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

This is the funniest thing I've read in quite some time.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Ok...I think I got it out of my system now. Deep breaths...deep breaths. LOL.

I'm not going to touch this one with a 10ft pole, but suffice it to say San Fran is not what you're making it out to be. They are VERY liberal about drinking alcohol (and doing LOTS AND LOTS of other things too) in public. You haven't been there much, have you?

As an example, go during Folsom sometime...you wouldn't be making this argument. Not that I'm advocating it (and not that I participate in that), but still...you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[ChriswUfGator]

No problem for ticketed public events in venues such as theaters, etc. 

Oh, how nice of you to acknowledge that we can have alcohol on PRIVATE PROPERTY...LOL

duh

I'm only talking about public/community events in open public places.

Again, exactly WHO are YOU to set the standards for the rest of the community?

[stjr]

I don't know that the Farmers Market vendors would fit what RAM is looking for.  It seems like RAM is trying to highlight organic/natural produce that's local.  I don't know how much of the stuff at the Farmers Market is local, but it seems like a good deal of it isn't (there are lots of pineapples, bananas, etc.).  I know there are some items such as strawberries, peaches and watermelon that are local during their respective seasons, but I don't know how many of the vendors the RAM would approve.

I wish to clear up this mis-perception about a lack of "local" (see my definition in the quote below) produce at the Beaver Street Farmers Market.  Failure to do so will only harm those who really do want "local" produce.

Why is the Farmers Market so easily misunderstood?  Because the Farmers Market is so varied.  Compared with anywhere else in Jax, you won't find more "local" produce or any other produce than at the Jacksonville Farmers Market.  When, in season, they are loaded with TRUCKLOAD upon TRUCKLOAD of honeydew, cantaloupe, watermelons, peaches, Vidalia onions, pecans, strawberries, citrus, all kinds of greens (cut and uncut), beans, tomatoes, pumpkins, sugar cane, honey (the Tupelo is to die for), potatoes, etc., etc. often at up to 75% or more off grocery store prices.  [For some products, "local" may mean as far away as Virginia because products like apples, etc. don't grow any closer to here.]  That doesn't mean you won't have other produce as well.  People want a wide variety of items year 'round as well as specialty and ethnic products found nowhere else in North Florida and you have to have it all to attract some of these people.

Also, if the vendors sold exclusively "local" only, you might not have any vendors selling anything. They have to have enough product to make a living year 'round.  As it is, no matter what they sell, its half the price of the grocery store.  And, the wholesalers at the Farmers Market are frequently the source for all that "local" product you are finding at the roadside stand by the highway, the suburban produce store, at the better restaurants in Jax, or at RAM, other street and arts festivals, and the flea markets.  You can chose to by direct or second hand, whatever suits you, but folks, the produce available is not better represented anywhere in North Florida, than at the Farmers Market.  It is a fact that "local" produce isn't in the mix as much as it used to be due to 2/3 less farms (see quote below) and the growth of global and national trade over the decades but what "local" is available is at the Farmers Market in quantity and selection, first and foremost, over any other source in the region.

To see how much money you save at the Farmers Market go to this news story First Coast News ran last year comparing it to the grocery stores (in both transcript and video form) at:  http://www.firstcoastnews.com/money/onyourside/news-article.aspx?storyid=109749&catid=9

Below are my previous comments on this same subject at the MJ photo tour of the Jacksonville Farmers Market on Beaver Street at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4133.15.html

Many vendors are seasonal farmers and many of the regular vendors are supplied by farmers who don't wish to hang around and sell their production.  A lot of the farmers sell out early in the day and you have to be there earlier to catch them.  Remember, too, there is a significant wholesale operation in the early morning and farmers like to sell out quickly and get back to the farm.

With fewer and fewer farmers in the region (see below data from last week's Florida Times Union article showing that in Duval County acreage has shrunk some 73% over the last 52 years) it is not as easy to find very close-by suppliers. I would consider any farmer from Florida, Georgia, or the Carolinas "local" by today's standards.  Yes, there are some vendors that mix in or carry other produce because it is nearly impossible to have enough variety and supply year round depending only on "local" production.  And some of the ethnic or specialty produce may not be grown locally.  You should ask questions if this is important to you and buy accordingly.  But it is not right to whitewash equally all the vendors and/or the produce sold as there is way too much variety and seasonality.[/b]

By the way, if someone wants something special in the market, some existing vendors may be able to bring it in.  Or, maybe you could find a new vendor to set up shop there if you see a niche not being covered.  It is, after all, the ultimate in entrepreneurial settings.  Cool
----------------------------------------------------
Per the Florida T-U:
SHRINKING FARMLAND
The number of farms and farmland in Duval County has been dwindling over the years, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's census:
1950
975
farms
112,543
acres

2002
382
farms
31,241
acres
Note: The 2002 figures are the most recent available; they will be updated in February.

[CrysG]

I just want to point something out we've had RAM compared to everything from an Art Gallery to symphony but I think your missing a very important fact. None of those events that serve alcohol actively seek families.  I wouldn't take my child to the Art Walk, art gallery or the symphony but I would take my child to get their face painted or see a magician(like the one that put on the show).

Just because people drink doesn't mean they should be able buy a drink at every public event that the city has. If you need a drink that bad walk over to the restaurants in 5 points or downtown have a lunch and come back.

And in another note there seems to be a lot of people saying that having produce and other groceries isn't what the ART market is for. If I'm not mistaken but produce is on the front page(of the website) same as art. They are equal.

[ChriswUfGator]

I just want to point something out we've had RAM compared to everything from an Art Gallery to symphony but I think your missing a very important fact. None of those events that serve alcohol actively seek families.  I wouldn't take my child to the Art Walk, art gallery or the symphony but I would take my child to get their face painted or see a magician(like the one that put on the show).

Just because people drink doesn't mean they should be able buy a drink at every public event that the city has. If you need a drink that bad walk over to the restaurants in 5 points or downtown have a lunch and come back.

And in another note there seems to be a lot of people saying that having produce and other groceries isn't what the ART market is for. If I'm not mistaken but produce is on the front page(of the website) same as art. They are equal.

I'm sure if your 5 year old tries to buy a beer, they'll card him.

So, again, what's the problem?

[CrysG]

The point is that people complain that people bring small children to things that are "adult" but some adults insist on bringing beer to everything.

Not to be mean but if you're a grown adult and you can't see yourself walking around for a couple of hours without a drink in your hand then you might want to spend those hours in AA. If you want a drink stay home, go to a restaurant or try the Art Walk. There are places that drinking is okay and there are places that drinking isn't.

[stjr]

I have a suggestion for all the beer/wine lovers and haters to try and keep peace in the MJ family.  How about, RAM, being that is on a Saturday, staying open to like 10 PM or so.  During the day, to 4 PM, its alcohol free.  After 4 PM, it's later, and it changes up the entertainment and a few vendors so its more adult oriented, and beer and wine are served to the "Saturday night" types who can come downtown, to Riverside, or to RAM for dinner, art, and a romantic stroll along the river.

Can we do this and declare a truce?  Or, I can throw another log on the fire    Does Disney serve drinks in its theme parks? (You know they do at Sea World, it is, after all, owned by Anheuser Busch!)