Amend Sunrail Deal: This train has too much baggage

[thelakelander]

Downtown - St. Augustine?

[Ocklawaha]

Maybe, so but I really don't think any of our Bi-directional area's actually backs up traffic in two directions. I've seen Miami completely stopped, ditto for LA. BTW, did y'all know Miami Metro - South Florida, is 3Rd most dense city in the USA behind NYC, and LA.

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Besides your first two, Ock, along I-95, it is pretty bidirectional* between I-295 and Butler.


* don't tell certain groups we have bidirectionality going on out on the highways! 

[thelakelander]

There are times when I-95 backs up in both areas, between DT and JTB, during afternoon rush hour.  However, we should not compare it to what Miami faces.  Because of the size difference and landscape, South Florida is a completely different animal.  Our true peers (size wise) are second tier cities like Nashville, Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, Providence, etc.

BTW, did y'all know Miami Metro - South Florida, is 3Rd most dense city in the USA behind NYC, and LA.

Close, but not exactly.

San Francisco, New Orleans (before Katrina numbers), San Jose, Las Vegas, Honolulu are other urban areas that have higher density levels than South Florida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas

[Ocklawaha]

Wonder which is correct? My density data came from the Feb 2009 issue of Progressive Railroading Magazine.

I by no means would suggest we are like Miami (thank God), just wanted everyone to understand where double track is going to be critical, when running passenger on passenger train, as opposed to mixed traffic.
With the right deal, Freight can always "Go in the Hole" and let a passenger train slide past. Properly planned and executed like the Florida East Coast operates, long passing tracks should fix Jacksonville's needs for many years to come.

Only the thick bi-directional area's: JTB - DT, and maybe DT - NAS/YUKON - OP are the only places where we need double track.

FEC already has it. The "S" line North or West of town won't need it, and the CSX "A" line on the Southwest side was double tracked from DT to South of Yukon until about 1965. There would be no need to buy new Right-of-way on the CSX "A" line, if we needed double track.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

* don't tell certain groups we have bidirectionality going on out on the highways! 

Oh the humanity, nasty highways!

LOLA...by THE KINKS

I met her in a club down in old soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry-cola [lp version:
Coca-cola]
C-o-l-a cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice she said lola
L-o-l-a lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola

Well Im not the worlds most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Well Im not dumb but I cant understand
Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man
Oh my lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola

Well we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said dear boy wont you come home with me
Well Im not the worlds most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes well I almost fell for my lola
Lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola



OCKLAWAHA HEE HEE HEE!

[thelakelander]

Wonder which is correct? My density data came from the Feb 2009 issue of Progressive Railroading Magazine.

The US Census Bureau.

Here is a list of the densest urban areas in the US and Canada:


1. 7,068.3  Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana

2. 6,835.2  Toronto, ON

3. 6,130.4  San Francisco-Oakland

4. 5,914.1  San Jose

5. 5,309.3  New York-Newark

6. 5,101.6  New Orleans

7. 4,786.1  Montreal, QC

8. 4,659.8  Honolulu

9. 4,597.1  Las Vegas

10. 4,459.7 Oxnard, CA

11. 4,407.4 Miami

93. 2,149.2 Jacksonville

http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm

I by no means would suggest we are like Miami (thank God), just wanted everyone to understand where double track is going to be critical, when running passenger on passenger train, as opposed to mixed traffic.

In terms of density and landscape, which is what I was referring to, I would not mind Jax being like them.  At this point, they have no choice but to embrace infill development and mass transit.  We're still in the fight of our lives to teach our elected leaders that sprawl is bad.

[Ocklawaha]

It's pretty weird that a magazine with such respect would be so far off, I wonder if they are accounting for this in some other way? Oh well, it is what it is.

OXNARD! Oh cripes, the Garden Spot of the World!

... and I too wish we were more like San Francisco, Portland or Seattle, sadly though, we are more like Mobile and POST KATRINA New Orleans. In fact it's once again wearing on me quite a bit, might have to bug out to better climes if we don't see some positive signs soon. Damn, Oklahoma City has left Jacksonville in it's dust!

Bring on Commuter Rail, BRT, Streetcars and Finish the Damned Skyway, and we might see a solid influx of new faces and investments.

...Oh did I say POST KATRINA New Orleans? Sorry about that Jacksonville, but at least the Big Easy has excellent transit, and the organist on the Natchez plays "Free Bird" on the Steam Colipee. So yeah, New Orleans is ahead of us too.

OCKLAWAHA

[Jason]

Question:  In commuter train systems that carry the majority passengers one direction during a morning or evening rush hour, what happens to the train when it reaches its destination?  Does it just turn around and run back to the the beginning of the line empty or with a couple passengers? 

I guess that is a scenario where bi-directional commutes benefit the system.

[Ocklawaha]

Jason, this is one of the beauty's of RAIL over any other mode. Think about this, "THE ABILITY TO EN-TRAIN"

That said, what would my crystal ball say?

Let's start and say we have a 22 car fleet of RDC cars, each is self propelled and can operate as an independent train. If they are coupled into trains of 2 or more cars, they still save money because the engines on all but the lead car are running at 50% or less of their capacity.

Now in this "vision" we have active commuter rail lines from St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, Macclenny and Fernandina Beach.

As you pull into your park and ride lot in St. Augustine, you see 5 RDC cars spotted south of the station. There is maybe a 100' gap between each. One by one, every 30 minutes an RDC "Train" heads to Jacksonville.
Within an hour and a half you end up with 3 cars sitting at the Jacksonville Terminal. The same thing is going on on each of the legs of the Commuter Rail line. The Terminal which has "my" 9 track yard has no problem taking in the RDC's and shutting them down. Needless to say within a couple of hours you have 20 RDC cars downtown at the Terminal. In the afternoon the parades simply reverse direction and head back out...

This is overly simplistic and would not be the optimum operating scenario. Why? Because some passengers need to get OUT of downtown or the close in neighborhoods and go towards St. Augustine, Nocatee, Avenues, etc...  At this point we would get some bidirectional traffic, including those that leave downtown on each of the 4 routes 20 minutes or so after arrival.



Now we have 16 RDC's shut down in the yard and 4 RDC's running a longer headway, daytime service. Every 1.5 hours the little cluster pulls into the station from 4 directions, waits 20 minutes, then right back out again.

The schedule is planned so by 4 PM all 20 units are in downtown. For the next 3 hours they depart for St. Augustine and the other 3 end point cities, every 30 minutes. Doing the math, it's obvious that even during this rush, there will be at least some cars doing the back and forth a couple of times.

Any time that demand warrants, Say a Jaguar Game... We simply run them in trains of 2 or 3 cars. If one end of the line has a need for more seats, we can add or subtract cars at will. It's not at all usual to see 3 Metro-Link trains all coupled together. Engine + 5 coaches, another engine + 4 coaches, another engine + 4 coaches...etc. all running in one train. Only the first 5 are "LIVE" the others are called "Deadheads" and the movement is called a "Deadhead Movement."  It can be used any time trains stack up where you don't want them. For example a couple of months ago I saw a train on the CSX by Evergreen Cemetery on North Main Street of 30 engines!

Try this with 5 buses and ONE DRIVER!

In transportation the rule of thumb is Labor is 75% of the costs and the farebox will cover 25% of the operation expenses.  For those that want to scream "Damn Ocklawaha and his Socialist Passenger Trains..." I have a message for you... How much of the expansion or maintenance expenses did the "farebox" on JTB recover last year?

OCKLAWAHA

[Jason]

Great info Ock!!  You are a wealth of railroading knowledge.


Are the RDC's the most cost effective form of commuter service or would DMU's run a bit cheaper on the same system?

[mtraininjax]

Nice looking BUDD cars!

[FayeforCure]

Will state's deal with CSX be a train wreck?



DOUG ENGLE/STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER A National Transportation Safety Board inspector makes his way over a fallen tree near one of the Amtrak passenger cars at the site of a derailment near Crescent City on April 19, 2002.

By Bill Thompson
Staff writer


Published: Monday, March 30, 2009 at 6:30 a.m.
Last Modified: Sunday, March 29, 2009 at 10:32 p.m.
Seven years ago, a speeding northbound Amtrak passenger train derailed in Putnam County, killing four people and injuring more than 140 of the nearly 500 riders on board.

Investigators determined the April 2002 accident was caused by shoddy maintenance and improper stabilization of a section of the tracks, owned by CSX Transportation.

As a result, Amtrak paid $12 million in damages related to that crash near Crescent City, according to an October 2004 article by The New York Times. The article noted that some claims were still outstanding two and a half years later.

The Times also reported that CSX did not pay one dime, even though the multibillion-dollar company was responsible.

Instead Amtrak, which received more than $1 billion in government subsidies, bore the full financial burden for the mishap because Amtrak had agreed to shield CSX from liability in exchange for the right to use the freight hauler's tracks, a policy known as indemnification.

In fact, The Times found, Amtrak had doled out more than $186 million in accident claims over 20 years because of its indemnification agreements with CSX and other freight-train companies around the country - even though those accidents were not Amtrak's fault.

The state of Florida is poised to do the same thing.

A bill now being considered in Tallahassee would make the state "solely responsible" for compensating victims of almost all accidents along 61 miles of track that the state wants to use for the Deland-to-Orlando commuter rail known as SunRail.

That bill would also assemble the framework for future deals the FDOT might make with freight operators to introduce commuter rail to other metropolitan areas such as Tampa and Jacksonville. It has passed two state Senate committees and will receive further consideration from state senators this week.

Although SunRail's opponents tout scenarios such as the Crescent City tragedy as consequences that taxpayers can ill afford, the measure's proponents suggest such fears are overblown.

The state's plan, commuter rail advocates say, is little more than the "no-fault" insurance carried by every motorist in Florida.

In addition, they say, Central Florida is just conforming to terms found in other parts of the country. In South Florida, for example, the FDOT has likewise immunized the freight company in case of certain accidents on the TriRail commuter line.

Rather than worrying about letting CSX off the hook for an accident, proponents argue, the public should worry about letting CSX walk away from the commuter rail deal.

The liability protection is necessary, advocates maintain, because the state cannot afford to build its own commuter tracks.

And defeating this provision will prove costly in other ways: thousands of jobs eliminated, millions of dollars of infrastructure improvements and federal aid scuttled, and the prospect of relieving congestion along Interstate 4 forever killed.

Under the agreement CSX will shift many of its freight trains along the proposed commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, near Kissimmee, to tracks running through communities in the heart of the state, including Ocala and Gainesville.

CSX, however, may continue to operate its freight trains on the commuter tracks during those trains' off-hours.

One clear scenario where taxpayers would not be held liable in an accident is when only one train - a privately owned freight train - is involved.

Similarly, the FDOT will assume responsibility for accidents and damages that involve just a commuter-rail train.

If a commuter train and a freight train are involved in a mishap, taxpayers would pay for the damages for everyone except the freight hauler and its employees, even if they are to blame.

Under the bill, any freight train operator, including CSX, that travels on SunRail's tracks is protected "against any liability, cost and expense" related to accidents, "regardless of circumstances or cause." The freight train company would only be responsible for its people and equipment in such an instance.

And while the bill says the freight company and the state would split the cost of damages outside the rail corridor, opponents contend the corridor is so broadly defined in the measure that the language is meaningless.

Alexis Yarbrough, the FDOT's general counsel, defended the provisions as being the same as those the state drew up for TriRail, which has served the Miami area since 1989.

She also pointed out that CSX and other freight companies and the state will share responsibility for damages from accidents outside commuter rail corridors.

Moreover, CSX seeks this indemnification to create a "level playing field," Yarbrough said, because FDOT is utilizing the tracks for people who wouldn't otherwise be on them.

And in case of an accident the language of the bill helps speed up legal wrangling that could be drawn out by determining who is responsible for paying what, Yarbrough said.

Still, the Crescent City tragedy echoes one of a number of what-if incidents developed by state Sen. Paula Dockery, the most outspoken critic of the CSX agreement in the Legislature.

Dockery, R-Lakeland, created that list to highlight the state's vulnerability - an issue she utilized last year to sink the commuter rail plan.

This year, however, she lost a key ally because commuter-rail proponents dropped a key provision.

The state's trial lawyers had supported Dockery a year ago because the FDOT, which seeks to hire a contractor to run the commuter rail, wanted to put those workers under the state's sovereign-immunity umbrella.

Sovereign immunity is an age-old legal principle that says the government cannot be sued for its acts. Florida does allow that in some cases, but under state law victims can only recoup $100,000 per person and $200,000 for each incident.

The Florida Justice Association, the lobbying arm of the trial lawyers, is officially neutral on the SunRail legislation this year because sovereign immunity was stripped, said Paul Jess, the group's general counsel.

Jess said the group eased off once lawmakers understood their concerns that employees of a private, for-profit company should not be afforded the same protection for negligence as state employees.

The bill does contain a provision for the state to carry a $200-million insurance policy to protect against accidents. It will cost taxpayers an estimated $2 million a year.

In the Florida House, which is expected to easily pass the commuter-rail bill, Speaker Larry Cretul, R-Ocala, recently said since the removal of the sovereign immunity provision seemed to mollify the trial lawyers, the bill seems better than last year's.

Sen. Lee Constantine, an Altamonte Springs Republican who co-sponsored the bill, expressed frustration with the warnings over the liability language.

Calling it the "latest, greatest" excuse offered by opponents to reject the FDOT-CSX deal, Constantine maintained that he had successfully addressed other concerns - such as the sovereign immunity plank and concerns by Lakeland residents about increased freight train traffic through their community - and still had not gained any votes toward passage of his bill.

And, he noted of the liability clause, "If I solve that issue, I still wouldn't gain one vote."

Constantine said killing the bill would threaten a "tremendous" economic development and employment opportunity, while jeopardizing a cost-effective alternative to adding more lanes to I-4.

"We've had TriRail for 20 years under the same conditions and it hasn't caused a problem down there," he said. "We have to do this indemnity, or they will walk. I don't see what's the big hoopla."

Others do.

State Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink remains troubled by the liability provision and the state's exposure in a mishap. She told reporters at a recent appearance in Lakeland that she is concerned that CSX would be excused from all risk and that the state would not be able to find an insurer willing to underwrite a $200-million policy.

Beyond those points, Dockery argues that the state is agreeing to forever indemnify CSX, and any company that might buy their tracks later, with no guarantee commuter rail will ever exist.

"It goes to who is injured, and who is injured is on us, for whatever reason - unless they are on the freight train," Dockery said. "We're going to absolve all the liability from CSX."

http://www.ocala.com/article/20090330/ARTICLES/903301006/1402/NEWS?Title=Will-state-s-deal-with-CSX-be-a-train-wreck-

Seems to me that if an accident is caused by neglect of CSX rail maintenance, CSX should not be shielded from the financial consequences. That's simply too much risk to bear for the tax-payer, if a for-profit company tries to maximize its profit by skimpimg on rail maintenance.

[thelakelander]

Just wondering. Who will be in charge of dispatching trains for Sunrail or maintaining the line?  The largest difference I see between the Amtrak example and Sunrail, is that the State of Florida will own the line, not CSX.

[Ocklawaha]

Just wondering. Who will be in charge of dispatching trains for Sunrail or maintaining the line?  The largest difference I see between the Amtrak example and Sunrail, is that the State of Florida will own the line, not CSX.

This is true, Florida will own AND control the line. Amtrak must be dispatched over member roads by the track owners themselves. It would be next to impossible to have an Amtrak dispatcher trying to send a fast train down the FEC while an FEC dispatcher was doing the same thing with 3 freight trains.

My understanding is this is an outright takeover. SUNRAIL will control, dispatch etc... I'm willing to bet the MJ DOLLAR that within two years of the start up, Florida Central is handling all Freight on the line and CSX leases out the "A" north to near Jacksonville, or seeks an outright abandonment South of Palatka.

OCKLAWAHA