Amend Sunrail Deal: This train has too much baggage

[FayeforCure]

wrongtrackflorida.com is the source?

hmm.

stephen, I'm surprised you would be so dismissive,.......107 rail projects since 1976 are compared by HWWR, Powder Springs, GA 30127.

If you have any problems with it, the document indicates you can contact rgrandish@hwwr.com.

Don't just dismiss it off-hand......... 

[Charles Hunter]

Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."

Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:

The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.

...

The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.



OCKLAWAHA

I am confused, the linked PDF states (in red) that the Central Florida CSX deal does not include freight traffic or revenues.  Yet, Ock's post says there will be lease-back for freight traffic.  In the part I cut (for brevity), he expresses concerns that CSX might abandon that route entirely, resulting in no lease-back revenues along the SunRail line.  Did the folks at wrongtrackflorida take that into account?  It is hard to say, because their report is just the same table, sorted two ways.  No explanatory text.

What sort of liability arrangements do other commuter rail operations around the country have?  What is the current arrangement for Tri-Rail in south Florida?  I heard a presentation by a SunRail (it wasn't called that, yet representative saying their proposed liability deal is the same as TriRail's and other CR arrangements.  As said above, without comparison, it is easy to say something is bad.  If it is the standard operating procedure, then we need to suck it up and proceed.  If, indeed, this is something out of the ordinary, we need to go back to the negotiating table and get something reasonable.

Ock, in your scenario where CSX completely abandons the "A" line (US 17), do they have no clients along this corridor?  What about the power plants in Palatka and Sanford?

[Ocklawaha]

Is my red light on? WATCH OUT FOR THIS...

Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."

Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:

The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.

...

The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.



OCKLAWAHA

I am confused, the linked PDF states (in red) that the Central Florida CSX deal does not include freight traffic or revenues.  Yet, Ock's post says there will be leaseback for freight traffic.  In the part I cut (for brevity), he expresses concerns that CSX might abandon that route entirely, resulting in no leaseback revenues along the SunRail line.  Did the folks at wrongtrackflorida take that into account?  It is hard to say, because their report is just the same table, sorted two ways.  No explanatory text.

What sort of liability arrangements do other commuter rail operations around the country have?  What is the current arrangement for Tri-Rail in south Florida?  I heard a presentation by a SunRail (it wasn't called that, yet representative saying their proposed liability deal is the same as TriRail's and other CR arrangements.  As said above, without comparison, it is easy to say something is bad.  If it is the standard operating procedure, then we need to suck it up and proceed.  If, indeed, this is something out of the ordinary, we need to go back to the negotiating table and get something reasonable.

Ock, in your scenario where CSX completely abandons the "A" line (US 17), do they have no clients along this corridor?  What about the power plants in Palatka and Sanford?

Charles, sorry for the confusion... It took me a long while to sort through the legalize and try and boil it down.

The ORIGINAL PLAN said there would be a lease back. As the Sunrail deal has been revised, it now calls for a wheel charge or per Diem.

What I'm warning about is...

Wheel charge or per Diem is a typical railroad interchange between two distinct carriers. In this case it mentions Sunrail and it's operator(S).

My guess is this means Florida Central will take charge of everything from Deland to perhaps Taft Yard or even Auburndale.

CSX might or might not guarantee to keep the entire "A" line after we take complete charge of that critical 61 miles section. They might not operate it at all, or the best solution is they continue to send some freight through that route. Look what they did to the Former Seaboard main to Savannah, which now ends in pine trees at Richland, GA.. Another butcher job and the number one mistake the state has made by not getting involved was the former Wildwood (Coleman Jct) - Auburndale, route that carried half of Amtraks Miami trains.

We are NOT AMUNE to total abandonment between Deland and Palatka, and the Amtrak Route doesn't mean a damn thing to CSX... In fact they see it as the less "Amtrak Interference" the better.
KILL AMTRAK? Oh buddy they would if they could.

There are no customers between the Palatka Mills and Pecan Yard and Deland.

Draw bridges are expensive to operate and maintain, more so if they're old.

Putting it all together with a very suspect eye, I see the rails coming up between Palatka and Deland.

Amtrak rerouted to the Ocala Line and the FEC.

Some sort of cut-off (STATE OWNED AND FUNDED) between OUC - ORLANDO and Titusville/Melbourne area.

A new roundabout Amtrak route down the FEC and onto the cut-off through Orlando to Tampa.


The mainline south of Palatka will resemble the old Seaboard Mainline (JAX - YULEE - RICHLAND - SAVANNAH) in Georgia.



Guess who's coming to dinner? If you think I'm nuts, this photo is the Florida Central pulling freight on CSX at the ORLANDO Amtrak station. BTW, FC is now doing most of the drill work around O - Town.

I'm not saying this will happen, however the day might come when the locomotives pulling 20 car freights along Roosevelt in West Jax. might be painted red with "FLORIDA NORTHERN" on their sides... If this happens - it's over.  

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

The other way of looking at this is, if CSX decides they won't need the track between Auburndale and Palatka, it sets up perfectly for the state to purchase the entire "A" line between Polk and Duval Counties.  After all, why pay to abandon and pull up track, if you can sell it to someone else for a profit.  Imo, that would be a perfect scenerio for intercity service between Central Florida and the First Coast, as well as commuter service between Jax and Green Cove Springs.

[thelakelander]

Here is the pdf that substantiates "the highest price ever paid for rail in the United States," .....I knew I had seen it somewhere 

http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf

Good list, although the website's purpose gives me concern that more in depth study of how they arranged their numbers may be needed.  The number one thing that stands out is how we get to the $649 million number.  That's a cooked up number that does not tell the whole story. 

1. $203 million of that is for five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up.  Imo, these FDOT projects should be excluded because its not CSX's responsibility to build overpasses for state highways over rail.  That, alone drops the cost down to $491 million or $8.1 million per mile.

2. The actual track purchase deal is $150 million for 61 miles or $2.5 million per mile.  It would be one thing if CSX were selling this line and getting out of the business, but the State wants them to remove a ton of the existing freight traffic to another corridor that does not have the track capacity in place.  Since CSX is not in the business of hurting or altering their business for free, it should be expected that the state pay for capacity improvements (the remaining $296 million) necessary for the state's plans to come true.

CSX Deal Shaky As Price Tag Rises 32 Percent

By LINDSAY PETERSON of The Tampa Tribune

Published: March 26, 2008

TAMPA - The cost of the state's commuter rail deal with CSX has risen by a nearly a third, from $491 million to $649 million, according to the latest Florida Department of Transportation estimates.

"The project seems to be growing in costs every time we turn around and ask more questions," said state Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey. He's one of several state lawmakers who are questioning whether Florida should spend so much money on railroads in a year when needed highway projects are being cut from the state budget.

The state DOT is proposing to buy 61 miles of CSX tracks in the Orlando area for commuter rail and to help CSX expand its freight operations statewide. CSX would get $150 million for the Orlando tracks. The rest of the money in the deal would be used to help CSX improve its freight rail corridors and run more trains into a massive hub the company plans to build in Polk County.

At the time the state announced the multimillion-dollar deal, in August 2006, the freight improvements included five highway overpasses that the state said would cost $59 million. That cost has gone up to $203 million, according to a November 2007 report on the project.

The report also adds $14 million in closing costs for the Orlando-area track purchase.

The increased overpass costs and the closing costs boost the $491 million total to $649 million.

The overpass costs increased when the state DOT "further defined those projects [and] the cost to construct," said Kevin Thibault of the state Department of Transportation.

full article: http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/26/csx-deal-shaky-price-tag-rises-32-percent/news-metro/

Knowing this information, I wonder which of the acquisition examples listed in the PDF link were actually the same scenario and if all of their numbers (ex. adding state highway overpasses as a part of CSX's profit, etc.) have been accurately added in?  Adding $203 million in already proposed state road improvements has me highly skeptical already.

With that said, I do believe costs can be cut.  However, I think the area to look is the capital costs for getting the line up and running.

1. All 61 miles will be double tracked.  Is that needed right a way?

2. Expensive rail cars will be purchased.  Can we reduce costs by purchasing used cars?

3. Many stations have Tri-Rail style elevated platforms over the track.  This means, platform aside, we're paying for two elevators (these things aren't cheap) at each station.  So do we absolutely have to have elevated track crossings at stations? 

If we revisit some of these issues, the cost of this system will drop dramatically.

[Ocklawaha]

"The project seems to be growing in costs every time we turn around and ask more questions," said state Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey. He's one of several state lawmakers who are questioning whether Florida should spend so much money on railroads in a year when needed highway projects are being cut from the state budget.

Who else would we expect to speak out against this? I imagine the boys in Chipley are none too happy either. New Port Richey won't benefit from this in any way until the Tampa Regional Transportation Authority cranks up regional Commuter Rail Around the Bay. That's got to be some distance away at this stage of the game. On the other hand if Senator Fasano would get on board, he could push for reconstruction of the track from Brooksville to Inverness and a rehab of the track from Tampa (Sulphur Springs Jct) to Brooksville, as well as Inverness - Dunnellon - Alachua - Starke - (and hence on the main into Jacksonville). This would reopen a complete new route to through passenger trains.

As you stated Lake, it could be to our benefit to allow or encourage CSX to bow out of the A line between JAX and AUBURNDALE alltogether. Another operator, shortline, FEC, etc... would still be turning over the traffic at either end. The only hitch in this idea is NS could be seen as an encroachment threat. They sued before the ICC long after the Seaboard - Atlantic Coast Line = Seaboard Coast Line, merger, to force open a line to Tampa for "balanced competition". It WAS fun to watch the giants take swings at each other.

The actual track purchase deal is $150 million for 61 miles or $2.5 million per mile.  It would be one thing if CSX were selling this line and getting out of the business, but the State wants them to remove a ton of the existing freight traffic to another corridor that does not have the track capacity in place.  Since CSX is not in the business of hurting or altering their business for free, it should be expected that the state pay for capacity improvements (the remaining $296 million) necessary for the state's plans to come true.

Forcing this issue as the State can only do is something people just don't get. This is why I said it would be "AS IF" CSX could just decide it wants I-95 between JIA and Jessup, Georgia. They'll take complete control of traffic, maintenance, etc... But don't worry, we'll just have to move all the traffic over to I-75. But the people don't want CSX to provide for capacity expansion on I-75! Too costly! Perhaps this will help some see where this Sunrail deal puts CSX. I can tell you frankly, had this happened in the late 1960's or 70's, the railroads would send Tallahassee a simple message - "F**K Y*U !"

With that said, I do believe costs can be cut.  However, I think the area to look is the capital costs for getting the line up and running.

1. All 61 miles will be double tracked.  Is that needed right a way?

2. Expensive rail cars will be purchased.  Can we reduce costs by purchasing used cars?

3. Many stations have Tri-Rail style elevated platforms over the track.  This means, platform aside, we're paying for two elevators (these things aren't cheap) at each station.  So do we absolutely have to have elevated track crossings at stations? 

If we revisit some of these issues, the cost of this system will drop dramatically.

Item 1. - I'd tend to agree with FDOT and Tri-County on this one. It could be done with single track and passing sidings, but commuter rail needs to be more fluid then even Skyways or Streetcars. When you have 321 passengers on board trying to beat the time clock in O-Town, and they get "HELD OUT" of some station in Longwood, because another train is running late, or the Florida Central Switcher is blocking the main... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. Tri-Rail tried this and it took many years of nail biting and poor performance to get Tallahassee to ante up and fix it.

This is also a density issue. In Miami - West Palm where commuting is bidirectional single track will NEVER work. In Orlando, though it's more condensed, it's job market is scattered from Disney to Daytona Beach so it too will be bidirectional but probably to a slightly lesser degree. In Jacksonville where we have two five large centers of employment. IE: Downtown, Town Center, Port, NAS, Cecil/West Side, The Jacksonville routes can all be covered with upgraded single track. Miami and Orlando will have Lineal systems, with one or two parallel trunk lines, and Jacksonville will have a hub and spokes type system with Downtown at it's core.


Push-Pull cab car on Tri-Rail


Dallas RDC car on Trinity Rail Express

2. Some of the Orlando equipment is already in the State. We do not have any dedicated push-pull trains for Sunrail yet but they are available off the shelf. An interesting twist might be the Dallas RDC fleet which rumor has it, might end up here or in "O-Town", or both, due to a federally mandated "pass along" clause in most transit grants. Personally, if I a crew member, I'll take an RDC ANY DAY over the push end of a push-pull locomotive hauled train. Many transit agency's have used cars too, in fact the whole former Chicago Gallery car (stainless steel - two floors) fleet is now for sale.


Tri-Rail station with overpass.


At a glance, if your running to the track, which train is running backwards? Can you cross safely? After it passes? (*Answer below)

3. Elevated track pedestrian overpasses strike me as the single area where we could see a huge savings. Anywhere except the core of downtown, these are unneeded. Pompano Beach gets along fine with a huge park and ride lot and a fence down the center between the tracks. If one wants to cross you simply go to the signaled crossings at either end.

As time passes, the overheads could be an add on, or perhaps targeted for stimulus money. The reason they exist in the first place is without fail, you'll always have 5 - 10 dashing commuters running to catch the train that is already in the station. With dwell times of maybe 30 seconds, these people run across the (hopefully) empty track, whip around the train, and dive for the doors just as their about to Highball out. I observed this in Boyton Beach, pompano, Boca Raton etc... over and over again. There were many times that two trains were coming in, one from each direction and the people STILL did this, darting right in front of train after train. But strict enforcement might be cheaper then walks and elevators for starters.

OCKLAWAHA

*(ANSWER) - Your dead! Sorry Charley! These trains are both coming at you, so you wait for them to pass... Notice that green signal? The train out of the photo to your right is going to scream right between these two and turn you into Hamburger.

[Lunican]

It's ironic that the original article posted to this thread comes from Miami, where they are currently operating Tri Rail under the exact agreement they are opposing for Orlando. I wonder if they even realize this?

[FayeforCure]

The other way of looking at this is, if CSX decides they won't need the track between Auburndale and Palatka, it sets up perfectly for the state to purchase the entire "A" line between Polk and Duval Counties.  After all, why pay to abandon and pull up track, if you can sell it to someone else for a profit.  Imo, that would be a perfect scenerio for intercity service between Central Florida and the First Coast, as well as commuter service between Jax and Green Cove Springs.

This is how I understand it to be. One of the ideas behind the Central Florida Commuter rail project was to get freight trains and the resulting truck traffic, out of historic Winter Park.

Of course CSX should be "helped" to move over to the other rail for their freight,......no question about that, but are the "capacity improvements"  at $296 overpriced? I honestly don't know.

As far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true? It was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.

Which is exactly why the costs keep growing,..........many of the associated costs were "intentionally" withheld, to sell people on this project. So that's why what started out to be a $150 million purchase price, ended up being a $640 cost to the state. It's a budgeting trick I'm very familiar with, as I budgeted for Medical equipment that required associated remodeling of facilities, a cost that would be "included" or not depending on our audience.

Meantime we've got some more increases coming our way:

Bids for SunRail exceed maximum set by state
Dan Tracy | Sentinel Staff Writer
February 24, 2009

DeLAND - The cost of the planned commuter-rail train through Central Florida appears to have gone up by close to $7 million.
The Florida Department of Transportation on Monday opened three bids for the project known as SunRail and discovered that the lowest proposed price was about $165 million to prepare the proposed 61.5-mile line to begin operations in mid-2011.

Florida DOT, overseeing the startup of SunRail, previously had set a maximum bid of $158 million for what is known as the "design/build" phase of the venture.

All three bidders told the state three weeks ago that they could not do the work for that price, prompting FDOT to seek new proposals, but only after dropping some tasks.

FDOT spokesman Steve Olson would not speculate on whether his agency would accept the apparent low bid.

It was submitted by Archer Western Contractors/Rail Works of Jacksonville, a partnership of the Parsons Transportation Group and TransSystems.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-newbids2409feb24,0,1083313.story

BTW, thelakelander, you make some excellent points on ways to save. I just added another possibility above.

What I don't think is the right approach is to have a for-profit have free reign to "dictate" cost estimates they are comfortable with at the expense of the Florida taxpayer. It should be fair and equitable, and I have no way of knowing if that is the case. It might be, but given all the complaints,.......and people calling it a CSX sweetheart deal, it does raise some question.

I'm absolutely shocked and suspicious when I hear a key person use this comment: "If you pee on CSX’s parade in Central Florida, do you think they’re going to cooperate with other entities?"

Why don't we just absolutely make sure, that we are not over-paying. Remember, it's also the way we can get more people on board to actually support this commuter rail project. As it is many are calling it a boondoggle.

[thelakelander]

The only way to know if you're overpaying is to take a realistic unbiased view at what we have before us and evaluate this deal with similar deals made in other regions.  At this point, it does not appear that the opposition has done this.

As far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true? It was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.

Ocala (one of the cities where they will be constructed) has been asking for rail overpasses for years, since the S-Line splits their city in half.  This deal just gives the state the opportunity to go ahead and get these long needed road improvements funded and completed.  However, make no mistake about it, regardless of whether commuter rail happens or not, its not the railroad's responsibility to construct FDOT road overpasses.

Although the Florida Department of Transportation says the $25 million overpass was always in its plans, Marion County transportation officials say requests for such a bridge went unheeded - and unfunded - until FDOT and CSX Transportation started discussing a commuter rail line from DeLand through Orlando and on to Poinciana, just southwest of Kissimmee.

full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=24892

Also, this article had a little information on project's components:

The proposed $1.2 billion, taxpayer-funded deal that critics assail as too complicated and murky is drawing greater scrutiny as state lawmakers try to plug a budget gap approaching $2.5 billion.

As it stands, in addition to the $150 million purchase of A-line tracks, the state also would dole out another $491 million broken down as follows: $23 million to relocate the Taft Rail Yard in Orlando to Winter Haven, where the CSX Intermodal Logistics Center is being built; $9 million for an access road to the ILC; $198 million for freight capacity improvements on the S-line; $209 million for five overpasses, including Southwest 17th Street, along the S-line; and $52 million for other freight-line improvements around the state.

But another $615 million is also associated with the project.

That amount includes laying extra track alongside the existing A-line to accommodate commuter-train traffic, 17 stations, rail cars and other rail improvements. The state will pay 25 percent of those costs; local governments within the four counties that directly benefit from the new commuter line - Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia - will pay 25 percent; and the federal government will pick up the rest.

Yet those figures do not include other associated costs such as operations, insurance and maintenance, critics say.

[tufsu1]

a few notes....

1. Of the 5 overpasses, one was already constructed by last year and another one will be under construction this year....regardless of the CSX/Sunrail deal....so I agree with Lake...these should not be listed in the cost

2. TriRail finished double tracking in 2007...which allowed for more trains and better on-time rates...the net result, combined with the rise in gas prices, was an increase in ridership of over 25%.

[FayeforCure]

Ocala (one of the cities where they will be constructed) has been asking for rail overpasses for years, since the S-Line splits their city in half.  This deal just gives the state the opportunity to go ahead and get these long needed road improvements funded and completed.  However, make no mistake about it, regardless of whether commuter rail happens or not, its not the railroad's responsibility to construct FDOT road overpasses.

Although the Florida Department of Transportation says the $25 million overpass was always in its plans, Marion County transportation officials say requests for such a bridge went unheeded - and unfunded - until FDOT and CSX Transportation started discussing a commuter rail line from DeLand through Orlando and on to Poinciana, just southwest of Kissimmee.

full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=24892

I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said it was the railroad's responsibility to build overpasses. But clearly nobody was going to get overpasses from FDOT until the commuter rail forced freight traffic increases through Lakeland, thereby making the overpasses "associated" costs for removing freight traffic from Winter Park. If the freight traffic had not been moved, those overpasses would not have been built or even been deemed as urgent or necessary. That's what's meant by associated costs. They are associated to the commuter rail project being able to use "existing rail."

Based on the fact that they are associated costs, they should be included in the costs to the state of using existing rail for the commuter rail project.

[Ocklawaha]

As far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true?

Believe me when I tell you that EVERY crossing in the USA would be closed tomorrow if the railroads had that power. In 99% of the cases the railroads were in place long before a State or Federal road network started encroaching on their private property. Then you have the safety, suit issues, and some idiot that thinks going around a gate is Mas Macho!

In the Southwest USA "Uncle Pete" aka: Union Pacific, is closing crossings and giving big bucks to small towns willing to close 3 out of 4 crossings and consolidate them into one grand, GATED crossing, pending an overpass. I know this because I was an OK City Councilman, when little Kingfisher got $$ that rebuilt a golf course, mini-train, ball fields, and an aquatic center.

Nationally the railroads and most state DOT's as well as much of the highway industry have banded together to kill all crossings. Locally the FEC has been on a war path to overpass, Race Track Road, and Sunbeam. Hendrix and San Marco have been on the States "Things to do list" since 1920... When South Jacksonville changed it's name from "OKLAHOMA!"

But what do we expect, this is JACKSONVILLE. Just as an aside, did you know the Spanish Government surveyed the Intercoastal waterway canal between the San Pablo River and Tolomato River in 1729? Well, like I said this is Jacksonville, so when the USA took charge and finally finished the canal and channel down the entire eastern seaboard of the USA guess what part was dead LAST to be dug? YUP! In 1912 the San Pablo - Tolomato gap was cut and the waterway declaired open.

It was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.

Faye, I think these articles have everyone confused. There will be NO NEW RAILROAD BUILT. NONE. At least for 5 years (a grace period given Lakeland to get the freight trains out of town) before we hopefully see a rebuild of the former Seaboard Wildwood (Coleman Jct) - Auburndale line. This will allow trains from the north to once again pass through JAX - Ocala - Wildwood - Auburndale - Winter Haven - West Palm - Miami.

Here is where it gets really sticky and the public doesn't have a clue.

Did you know when CSX abandoned that section of mainline in Central Florida our State DOT had every opportunity to take it and put it in a railbank status, holding it for future use. It was even in the State rail plan, which until now has been a paper tiger on all fronts.

It must have been another back slapping Tallahassee morning when the news came that the rails and ties were being removed and Amtraks Miami trains would be sent on a long detour from Wildwood, through Lakeland, and then East to Auburndale, in order to get back south to Miami. I can just imagine!

"Hey Louie, ya knows dat railroad ober in Jacksonville is boosting the tracks down in Wildwood"

"What are you talking, Yeah Vinnie, I seen dat one comin'."

"Dees slow old Southern railroads don't like da taxes; now the Penn Central! Now there was a RAILROAD!"

...and so it goes. We simply taxed the hell out of anything on the ground, and taxed the ground under it too! Much of the Railroad abandonments in Florida could be landed right on the steps of Tallahassee.

Bottom line Faye, there is NO WAY to Lakeland from Winter Park except over the current CSX "A" line, so while we'll see capacity increases, we won't see any "new railroads". My biggest fear is we'll see more track miles and less route miles.

Somebody needs to stick a plunger up FDOTS ass and pull their collective heads out. As a STATE DOT, they should be after "Obama Money" right now for the following Short List:

First of course is the line described above, the huge hole in the former mainline between Auburndale and Wildwood.

Reconstruction of the entire branchline (PHASE ONE) From: Starke - Alachua - Dunnellon - Inverness - Brooksville - Sulfur Springs Jct. - Tampa/St. Pete.  There is currently a gap between Dunnellon and Brooksville. If any of you want to look up the history, this was once the TAMPA NORTHERN on the South end and SEABOARD AIR LINE on the North.
It would give us a whole new West coast route for freight or passengers and a shortcut to St. Pete/Clearwater.
(PHASE TWO) reconstruct the former ACL mainline from MAXVILLE (just west of Baldwin) South to Alachua.

Another hole in the system we are going to start feeling is the almost new gap between Tavares and Wildwood. The Florida Central operates this former Seaboard line from Tavares - Apopka - Orlando. There is no reason why this shouldn't be in the SunRail system too. It would also offer Amtrak an alternate route into Orlando via Ocala and Gainesville (Waldo).

One last thought. Don't discount the wheel charges or Per Diem on freight cars. Railroads are very cash intensive with operating ratios that would send bankers out the upper floor windows. It's not at all unusual for a railroad pulling in 10 Billion dollars a year, to show a profit of a few million! OUCH! In fact there are even some in the industry that want the government to take over all trackage and create open access for freight companies like CSX, FEC etc... Something I'd fight tooth and nail... Anyone want to see what this will get us? I'll send in some photos of "my" railroad in COLOMBIA!

OCKLAWAHA
Keep in mind DOCKERY who fights SunRail has a husband that wants to fund Central Florida HSR! Conflict of interest anyone?

[thelakelander]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said it was the railroad's responsibility to build overpasses. But clearly nobody was going to get overpasses from FDOT until the commuter rail forced freight traffic increases through Lakeland, thereby making the overpasses "associated" costs for removing freight traffic from Winter Park. If the freight traffic had not been moved, those overpasses would not have been built or even been deemed as urgent or necessary. That's what's meant by associated costs. They are associated to the commuter rail project being able to use "existing rail."

Based on the fact that they are associated costs, they should be included in the costs to the state of using existing rail for the commuter rail project.

I'm sure, the residents of Ocala deemed them as urgent and necessary, considering the tracks slice through that community's heart.  Nevertheless, regardless of how its spinned (yes, the rail deal helped speed up their funding, for good reason of course), they were still already planned road projects.  Its disingenuous to add +$200 million in FDOT road projects to the commuter rail deal and then claim that its the most expensive rail deal in history.  

[thelakelander]

Item 1. - I'd tend to agree with FDOT and Tri-County on this one. It could be done with single track and passing sidings, but commuter rail needs to be more fluid then even Skyways or Streetcars. When you have 321 passengers on board trying to beat the time clock in O-Town, and they get "HELD OUT" of some station in Longwood, because another train is running late, or the Florida Central Switcher is blocking the main... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. Tri-Rail tried this and it took many years of nail biting and poor performance to get Tallahassee to ante up and fix it.

This is also a density issue. In Miami - West Palm where commuting is bidirectional single track will NEVER work. In Orlando, though it's more condensed, it's job market is scattered from Disney to Daytona Beach so it too will be bidirectional but probably to a slightly lesser degree. In Jacksonville where we have two five large centers of employment. IE: Downtown, Town Center, Port, NAS, Cecil/West Side, The Jacksonville routes can all be covered with upgraded single track. Miami and Orlando will have Lineal systems, with one or two parallel trunk lines, and Jacksonville will have a hub and spokes type system with Downtown at it's core.

I have a few questions.  Maybe I'm off base, but isn't Tri-Rail's situation somewhat different from Orlando's?

a. The Tri-Rail track is still a mainline for CSX to access customers in South Florida (a metro 4 times larger than Jax and twice as large as Orlando).  A good portion of CSX's through traffic will be shifted from the A, to the S line.  South Florida did not have this option. 

b. Didn't CSX trains still have priority over Tri-Rail trains?  On the other hand, doesn't the Orlando deal give commuter rail trains priority over freight during the day?

c. Sunrail is proposed to run every 30 minutes during peak hours and every two hours off peak.  They don't expect frequencies to increase until after the first 20 years of operation.  Doesn't Tri-Rail have more frequent service?

d. The A line is already double tracked from Winter Park to just north of Holden Avenue. 

e. Sunrail's first phase is 31 miles from Debary to Orlando (Sand Lake Road).

Given this information, wouldn't they be able to get away without complete double tracking initially, if the expense became an issue that could kill the entire deal?  If this were the case, would service be negatively impacted in the same fashion that Tri-Rail's was initially?

[Ocklawaha]

I have a few questions.  Maybe I'm off base, but isn't Tri-Rail's situation somewhat different from Orlando's?

Off base or out of the box?  Nothing wrong with that Lakelander.

a. The Tri-Rail track is still a mainline for CSX to access customers in South Florida (a metro 4 times larger than Jax and twice as large as Orlando).  A good portion of CSX's through traffic will be shifted from the A, to the S line.  South Florida did not have this option

. 

First Tri-Rail like Metro-Link in Los Angeles are not designed as Commuter Operations, rather they are Mitigation Measures that "became" Commuter Railroads. This makes their make-up, funding and operation rather unique.

Tri-Rail was formed in the mid 1980's when the state purchased Right-of-Way from CSX for I-95 construction mitigation.
But as we have so often pointed out on MJ, even with all the new expressways, the gridlock on the highways only got worse - MUCH WORSE.

In the 1990's Tri-Rail applied for a full funding grant from the FTA, at that time they were operating 28 trains daily, on a very unpredicitable schedule. The grant was awarded in 2000, and Tri-Rail added:

43.5 miles of new Double Track
New upgraded Signaling
11 new bridges
rebuilt 13 bridges
modified 10 stations
bought 5 diesel locomotives
2 new cab cars
grade crossing improvements

In March 2006, most projects were completed and the schedule went to 40 daily trains. In 2007 the agency finished the New River bridge replacement, and was able to expand to 50 trains. When gas prices spiked ridership soared to 4 million passengers in 2008, up 22% from 2007.

The South Florida Regional Transportation Authority now has control, but no dedicated funding source. The 4 counties each pay $4 Million a year for the services, and fully expect more service on weekends and nights. Trouble is the new budget has 3 of 4 of them saying they'll go back to pre SFRTA funding levels of $1.5 Million.

Lobby as they will, Florida has turned a deaf ear to every idea advanced.

The Orlando "buy-out" deal could be just the thing Tri-Rail needs to survive and thrive. South Florida cannot add more roads and even if they could they couldn't afford the land they'd sit on.

Without dedicated funding Tri-Rail couldn't even qualify for that grant it got, under todays rules. The Orlando deal must pass to start unscrambling the grid lock in the "heads" of Tallahassee.

b. Didn't CSX trains still have priority over Tri-Rail trains?  On the other hand, doesn't the Orlando deal give commuter rail trains priority over freight during the day?

When Tri-Rail started they had priority, but as the agency matured the custom of Amtrak and passengers as 1st class trains and freight as 2nd has taken hold. More freight has been shifted to the night and that's pretty much the same deal as Orlando is shooting for. We will not be so lucky, as we have MANY times more freight trains then the Orlando and Miami areas combined. So working out operating schedules and where we need double track for a lighter density line then either of the other cities, is going to be a tough sell.

c. Sunrail is proposed to run every 30 minutes during peak hours and every two hours off peak.  They don't expect frequencies to increase until after the first 20 years of operation.  Doesn't Tri-Rail have more frequent service?

That's pretty close to Tri-Rail, last trip when I went to Pompano, they were running about every 25 minutes peak. They'll be wrong about the increase, it's coming like it or not!

d. The A line is already double tracked from Winter Park to just north of Holden Avenue.

The REAL bottleneck will be Sanford - Longwood, and Altamonte - Maitland, this is where I see no escape. If your ever in Maitland, grab a photo of the line at the Maitland Avenue crossing, WHERE do you put a second track?

e. Sunrail's first phase is 31 miles from Debary to Orlando (Sand Lake Road).

Given this information, wouldn't they be able to get away without complete double tracking initially, if the expense became an issue that could kill the entire deal?  If this were the case, would service be negatively impacted in the same fashion that Tri-Rail's was initially?

Yes, Tri-Rail has a complete second mainline option with the Florida East Coast Route. As we post this all parties are in talks to put some of Tri-Rail on the FEC (closer to the Beach and central cities) which will tend to free up some space on the CSX line. It could also turn out that the whole of Tri-Rail's trackage ends up in complete state control like the Orlando deal proposes.

As for the double tracking, with this kind of density, and more so, the bi-directional commutes. it's almost a must. Certainly if it becomes a deal breaker, part of something is better then nothing at all.

Think of any Bi-Directional traffic in Jacksonville's rail corridors?

Maybe some JTB - Downtown, or Downtown - NAS/Yukon... anyone else have some?

OCKLAWAHA