JaxPort board pulls back from Mayport cruise terminal

[Ocklawaha]

Just got off the phone with the Chairman of the BRIDGE ENGINEERING ASSOCIATION in New York. http://www.bridgeengineer.org/

DAMES POINT:
Because it is not a suspension bridge but a cable stayed bridge, the cables are directly attached to the deck. IT CAN BE RAISED to a higher elevation. In general terms it would require a complete study. The center would have to be disassembled and the approaches cut back to a point where a new approach grade could lift off from the lower trestle sections. He said it would be easier then deepening the channel but would probably cause a traffic outcry. In lay terms they would shim the bridge up another 25 feet. Towers and bents (piers) can be extended in a variety of materials. Some new filler sections would need to be built to compensate for the new height=distance, but then the whole thing could be reassembled. Worlds greatest Erector set? (JAX-FACT: Did you know the ceiling of the Jacksonville Terminal was 125' above the floor?)

LEE STREET VIADUCT:
Yes, I know, you ALL call it the Park Street Viaduct over the railroad yards in front of Jacksonville Terminal (that building mistakenly called the "Prime Osbourne") but then most were not alive to read the beautiful engraved monument that was built into the original LEE STREET SPAN along with it's poetic dedication so "The the people of Jacksonville may pass."

Built WAY TOO LOW, Trains need 23' min, and it's only got 16'. PIECE of cake as far as raising it IF it sits on bearings, if not the job becomes more complex. (I don't think it does - real foresight there DOT!) In any case it's another remove the panels and raise/shim the bents, place a filler for extended height=distance and reassemble. At least here a temporary bridge or RR crossing would work as a detour while the work takes place. Cheaper then a new bridge. He knew of the land by the terminal and that DOT/JTA had the FEC dig out by cutting into the old tunnels and LOWERING their mainline to get under this new bridge. "OH NO THEY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT!" "Terrible" etc... Imagine 300,000 cubic yards of fill dirt and 2,100 pilings driven 70 feet into the ground just to fill in that swamp. Oh yeah, now guess what? THAT IS JUST FOR THE OLD PART of the station grounds, the little stucco arched remains on Bay Street. It once had a train-shed, a huge roof that covered all the boarding tracks and extended from 1/5 of a mile from Lee Street. A hurricane took care of the shed in 1894 and flooded the entire area neck deep in water.

SO WHAT?

So if we allow JTA to convince anyone else to remove the rest of the fill dirt from over the old tunnels and yard we'll be back to the 1894 ground level. They already got FEC to lower their only connections to the world and for commuter rail they want all the fill removed. So if you plan to travel by AMTRAK or COMMUTER RAIL in Jacksonville some rainy day in the future, you better wear scuba gear.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

DAMES POINT:
Because it is not a suspension bridge but a cable stayed bridge, the cables are directly attached to the deck. IT CAN BE RAISED to a higher elevation.

Great info, Ock.  This is the type of "out of the box" thinking this town needs to adopt to begin "elevating" (no pun intended, honest!) the community.

I doubt in a million years you would ever get JTA or FDOT to even think this was possible or check out it's feasibility.  It's just not the textbook way of doing things.  Once again, it will take the port interests, maybe led by JPA, to make the case if this is worth pursuing.

JPA v. JTA:  That's a faceoff we could probably sell tickets to!

[Charles Hunter]

JPA vs JTA - maybe even better'n Guns 'n' Hoses!!!

Ock - did your engineer give you a cost estimate, or a time to complete (that is, time the DP Bridge is closed to auto traffic)?  Sounds like it would a fun project to watch happen!!!

Ock2 - I think it was the City that lowered the Lee Street Viaduct, primarily to improve the view of the old terminal front from downtown, and secondarily to improve access from Lee Street (or maybe it was the other way around?).

[thelakelander]

^That's funny.  So the viaduct was lowered to create a view that ended up being blocked by the Acosta Bridge's ramps?

[Ocklawaha]

JPA vs JTA - maybe even better'n Guns 'n' Hoses!!!

Ock - did your engineer give you a cost estimate, or a time to complete (that is, time the DP Bridge is closed to auto traffic)?  Sounds like it would a fun project to watch happen!!!

Ock2 - I think it was the City that lowered the Lee Street Viaduct, primarily to improve the view of the old terminal front from downtown, and secondarily to improve access from Lee Street (or maybe it was the other way around?).

OCK 1 - Well from what he said, "much quicker, cheaper, simpler then the channel dredging project." My guess is it's somewhere between a very expensive repair and a whole new bridge. He did suggest that bridge consultants be brought in to look at the various methods that could be used. Look at the long term pay off - Rebuilt 200' Dames point/Broward Bridge + NEW MATTHEWS at maybe 200' also, and Panamax Ships could nestle right into the Comodore Point area. Cleared of old warehousing and having Bay Street extend east into a terminal would make for one hell of a location for a cruise terminal. Just add SKYWAY and STREETCAR and jump back and watch projects bloom that would dwarf "The Shipyards".

OCK 2 - You are probably right (the first guess) about it being city hall that wanted the "view" to be perfect from the Landing to the gates of Jacksonville Terminal. The whole point of the new Water Street extension was to bring it to the terminals door for aesthetics. Then wrap the whole thing up in a extreme underbuilt and poorly located convention center. The old Viaduct was destroyed along with it's monument (does this city value ANYTHING historic?). Then arms were twisted at the Florida East Coast - cha ching - cha ching - bodda biff - bodda boof and we lowered the tracks 8' to the original marsh level. Then along comes JTA-USDOT-FDOT with the new East Coast Corridor, Sunset Limited, Amtrak Expansion, Jacksonville Commuter Rail and Florida-Georgia regional rail concepts and oops, we have a bridge in the way. JTA's consultants told me, "Oh don't worry we'll put the entire rail yard in a concrete tub..." All the while visions of the New Orleans 9Th Ward and Katrina were dancing in my head. I'VE SEEN THE PHOTOS OF OUR STATION AFTER THE 1894 STORM - before the ground was filled, and it ain't pretty. Can't you just see all those NS, CSX and FEC transfer freights and all our new passenger trains stopping to open a flood gate to get out of our terminal? All for what? So we can keep a bridge that is already blocking progress, keep a convention center that ought to be someplace else, and replace an already built tunnel concourse system with a stupid ugly overhead skywalk above the tracks and OVER the back of the station all the way to Bay Street. MY GOD HOW STUPID!

AND... For the few hold outs that don't think we're that BIG DOG RAIL HUB? Well how about this from the USDOT. Freight Flow Map Florida Region. Still think our passenger station will fail? HEE HEE!

^That's funny.  So the viaduct was lowered to create a view that ended up being blocked by the Acosta Bridge's ramps?

Yes Lake, that's why... JAKE and the CofC were VERY concerned about "image". Sadly the engineers for this same new Acosta Bridge, discovered that the historic JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY car barns in Brooklyn, had somehow gotten in the way of the Riverside Avenue off ramps. As a result they "HAD TO" be blown down... But not before JTA HAULED 3 DUMP TRUCK LOADS of uniforms, badges, scrapbooks, ledgers, ticket punches, logos, photos, maps etc... to the Northside landfill. Amazing how all that history just jumped in the way of "progress". Oh and after the last bus had left the old barns (which were used for years as the JTA bus garage) and the last brick was torn off the walls, they came in and removed the tracks that were still in the pavement inside the building. I honestly got physically ill over this outrage and they didn't even call the JHS or RAP or anyone else to ask if they wanted the "stuff."

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

so freight rail and pssenger rail are now the same thing?

[Ocklawaha]

Considering that if Amtrak restores even once-daily service on these routes, or the traffic that we had prior to Katrina then these same lines (about 1/2 the point of my post) light up, and clearly mark Jacksonville as the center of a major hub. If Amtrak restored 500 trains per day on every line coming in and out of the State + every branchline or spur within the state, Orlando would still only have one mainline IN and the SAME mainline OUT. As for branchlines? Well they would have a train to Mount Dora!

Trains are not airplanes, are not ships, are not buses, trains do not use the airline inspired hub-and-spokes system you seem so fond of. All of this "State Expert" talk of bullet trains whizzing in and out of Orlando International Airport direct to MICKEY MOUSE and Tampa, use imaginary tracks, on imaginary railroads. Hell Orlando doesn't even have abandoned right-of-ways preserved. While I do think Central Florida Commuter Rail will see success, and eventual expansion and perhaps someday a merger into a regional Central Florida-Northeast Florida joint system, I see no prospects for a success with an Orlando Airport - Tampa Airport bullet train.

I have lived on Central near Lake Eola, on Michigan in Winter Park, Colonial Grande in Heathrow, Knotting Hill in Lake Mary, 25Th Street in Sanford, and Leland in Deltona. Believe me or Lakelander when we both say NOBODY is going to drive to Orlando International to catch a rocket sled to Tampa International. Stepping on an Amtrak train in Winter Park, and off in Downtown Tampa, at the regular cruise speed of 79 MPH would be faster AND cheaper, so would I-4.

Amtrak is captive to the freight railroads, so if you want to find where the multiple high speed tracks, great signal systems, yards, crew bases, repair facilities, work force and rail savvy population is, just follow the freight.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Converting a thread discussing PASSENGER Cruise SHIPS into one discussing PASSENGER RAILROADS!  Quite a trick, Ock.  A new kind of alchemy.  LOL. 

[tufsu1]

Ock...I'm not disagreeing with you....but here are some facts

1. Disney promises to put its tourists on the train (vs. their buses)....that's a lot of riders
2. Those same tourists may choose to go to Miami and/or Tampa (many already do)....and take the train
3. OIA already serves as a central point for statewide meetings...I go to at least 3 a year and drive every time
4. Jax can be a hub for freight because cities like ATL don't have seaports....the same doesn't apply for passenger rail

So, for the FINAL time....I agree that Jax. can be a hub for passenger rail TO and FROM Florida....but it makes very little sense as a hub for travel WITHIN Florida....the demographics speak for themselves.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm not arguing here, it's a matter of concept. We won't have a rail "HUB" for intra-state travel. Just won't happen. If it does it will be an end point city IE: Miami, Tampa, Jax.. Trains just don't run into and out of hubs on short or medium distance runs. For example the Capital Corridor - San Joaquins - Altamonte Express in California all run "baby bullet" trains yet there is no "hub". No trains HAVE to run through Richmond before getting to XXX . The hubs, if you want to call them that are the places where connections to other routes are made, but again end points. Oakland, Sacramento, Stockton. One can make connections in each of these cities, but none have much in the way of regional rail except maybe Stockton.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

So is a Hub where trains would tend to change direction as opposed to where people change trains?

[Lunican]

'Hub' is not a term that is used in railroading. Terminal (terminus.. end of the line) or station (run through) are the correct terms. A railroad is definitely not a hub and spoke network.

Chicago and several other cities may look like 'hubs' but that is not how they operate.