High speed rail could come to, but not through, Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

The U.S. Department of Transportation will allocate the $8 billion and will release guidelines on how to apply by June 17. Florida has already alerted the agency to its interest, Chira said.
Before it went into hibernation, the rail authority had been studying a line connecting Orlando to Tampa. A second phase would have connected Orlando to Miami.
On Thursday, Chira said the authority would focus getting stimulus money for that first phase, which has already gone through an environmental study and feasibility plan. Expansion north to cities like Jacksonville should only be a long-term goal.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-26/story/high_speed_rail_could_come_to_but_not_through_jacksonville

[fsujax]

Hopefully, everone who reads this will post a reponse on the TU site regarding this story. There are some pretty negative responses from people, so we need some good reponses. Now go post!

[pwhitford]

AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
__________________________________________________________
High speed rail could come to, but not through, Jacksonville

By Larry Hannan

Story updated at 2:22 AM on Friday, Feb. 27, 2009   


ORLANDO â€" High-speed rail in Florida essentially died in 2004, when voters repealed a four-year-old constitutional amendment they’d approved to mandate its construction.

But with a $790 billion stimulus package that was approved last week by Congress â€" $8 billion of that for high-speed rail â€" it has risen from the dead.

The latest map from the U.S. Department of Transportation breaks potential high-speed rail lines into eleven different corridors. Florida’s goes from Tampa to Orlando and then Miami.

It doesn’t, however, make it north to Jacksonville.

U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., said she is doing everything possible to make sure the 100- to 150-mph trains connect Jacksonville with the rest of the state.

Although DOT’s map links Jacksonville with a southeast corridor that includes Atlanta, Charlotte and Savannah, Brown anticipates a fight to make a connection with the rest of the state.

“It won’t be easy,” Brown conceded. “But I’m telling everyone that Jacksonville is the gateway to Florida, and the rail has to come through here.”

The Florida High Speed Rail Authority, dormant since 2005, sprang back to life Thursday in Orlando. Chairman Lee Chira said the authority will need the approval of Gov. Charlie Crist, who has supported the stimulus but hasn’t commented specifically on high-speed rail.

Crist’s office did not return calls seeking comment.

The U.S. Department of Transportation will allocate the $8 billion and will release guidelines on how to apply by June 17. Florida has already alerted the agency to its interest, Chira said.

Before it went into hibernation, the rail authority had been studying a line connecting Orlando to Tampa. A second phase would have connected Orlando to Miami.

On Thursday, Chira said the authority would focus getting stimulus money for that first phase, which has already gone through an environmental study and feasibility plan. Expansion north to cities like Jacksonville should only be a long-term goal.

Brown said it’s possible to add a Jacksonville-to-Orlando route that joins the Florida corridor to the southeast corridor. She views existing CSX tracks as the best chance, although the tracks would have to be upgraded.
Michael Blaylock, executive director of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, said the stimulus may be the ticket for both high-speed rail and commuter rail in Jacksonville. JTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.

From there, commuter rail would go from downtown to the suburbs. High-speed rail would connect areas all over the country and would include Amtrak, Blaylock said.

Brown said she has talked to Blaylock and will work to get the money.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com
(904) 359-4470

[BridgeTroll]

JTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.

So much for moving the convention center downtown where the courthouse now sits...

[thelakelander]

The convention center won't move as long as the city keeps its head in the sand and JTA remains afraid to make a big deal out of this issue.  We'll just end up with two inefficient complexes.

[Joe]

I don't see this as unreasonable.

It makes a tremendous amount of sense to try and establish a line connecting Miami Orlando and Tampa first. Jacksonville is the smallest metro of the four, and probably requires the longest number of miles of track upgrades.

Yeah, it would be nice for Jax to be in the first phase. But I'm not sure anyone can reasonably get too offended that they're targeting the closer and more populous areas first.

[tufsu1]

I agree Joe...and while an eventual connection to Atlanta would be nice, it doesn't make sense right now....we need to start thinking about mega-regions....these are the best places to connect w/ upgraded intercity rail....here's a good article about mega-regions

http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?aID=94705671.7268296.644449.7214088.135071.639&aID2=49564

The Piedmont region includes Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta-Birmingham

Florida pretty much stands on its own as a region...and Jax is not really inetgrated w/ the rest of the peninsula....yet!

[thelakelander]

Jax as a final phase is not unreasonable.  I think the larger issue is it even worth it to spend $2 billion for a HSR line between Tampa and Orlando.  When its all said and done, I wonder what is the cost and time difference between HSR in the middle of I-4 and express commuter rail on existing tracks?

[Joe]

Actually, I get a little annoyed that there is so much focus on HSR at all.

Without viable mass transit within each metro region, HSR will be a useless little feel-good toy. I know I'm going to get crap for saything that, but I stand by the opinion. There won't be enough demand to drive from a disconnected auto-centric Jax suburb to take a train to a disconnected auto-centric Tampa suburb (where you have to rent a car anyway). It doesn't matter if it's a 100 mph HSR or a 50mph regular Amtrak train.

Conversely, with viable transit within each metro region, intercity rail can be viable. Then it would start making sense to spend so much money improving the speed.

[stjr]

JTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.

Can one of our consultant friends on this sight explain to me how it can cost $2.5 mil to do a study on commuter rail?  Haven't these already been done?  What exactly are we studying for that money?  And why does it cost so much?

I might be willing to do the research for a lot less.  Let's see.... a few surveys, talk to the lobbyists and JTA politicos, talk to some contractors to get overly optimistic cost projections (don't want to scare anyone off), mix in some common sense (but, not too much, it might rock the boat!), add a few wild assumptions to make sure we don't bite any hands that feed us, lift some boiler plate wording from other studies to use as stuffing (we don't want to exert ourselves too much and those heavy books really impress), and wallah!  If it's off 90%, no problem, no one will go back and look.  A big fat book no one will read and paycheck to go with it.

I am all for this rail stuff but I don't think it takes a $2.5 million study to justify it.  I bet I and others here could guess 90% of what it will conclude at no expense and which will be a lot more accurate than that last big study on the $ky-high-way or this one will likely be.

And you wonder why I wax cynical about consultants.  Help me out.

[thelakelander]

Joe, I don't really disagree with your position.  My thing is that its a bad idea to sink that much money into a risky proposal before viable affordable alternatives (commuter rail, better Amtrak service, etc.) are thoroughly explored and implemented.  Locally, it would be like building an elevated skyway twenty years ago when ground level light rail could have accomplished the same thing for half the cost.  If it fails, you end up with another skyway/bad rail image situation on your hands (stjr should like that statement).

[fsujax]

The first phase of the mentioned transportation center is at the current site of the Convention Center Skyway station, not behind the current convention center. The article seemed a little misleading.  Everyone needs to realize that JTA is just completing a FEASIBILITY study for commuter rail. The feasibility study gets us to the point where we can request dollars for further study.  The next phase of studies called Alternatives Analysis will start the process of recieving federal funds for any such regional rail systems. This is the first step in a very difficult journey in the federal process. Even, in states where these systems have been built with local/state funding studies and environmental documentation is a part of the process. These things dont just happen overnight and everyone is just going to have be patient. If this would have been started six years ago, we wouldnt be so behind and missing out on construction dollars! Now is the time for planners to be saying, "see this is why we need good planning!"

[cline]

I might be willing to do the research for a lot less.  Let's see.... a few surveys, talk to the lobbyists and JTA politicos, talk to some contractors to get overly optimistic cost projections (don't want to scare anyone off), mix in some common sense (but, not too much, it might rock the boat!), add a few wild assumptions to make sure we don't bite any hands that feed us, lift some boiler plate wording from other studies to use as stuffing (we don't want to exert ourselves too much and those heavy books really impress), and wallah!  If it's off 90%, no problem, no one will go back and look.  A big fat book no one will read and paycheck to go with it.

Only talking to "some contractors" and conducting "a few surveys" would be completely inadequate for a study involving a project of this magnitude.  

[stjr]

Cline, the comments you quoted where intended to make a point while using some "tongue-in-cheek" humor!  Looks like I hit a nerve.  Lighten up.

However, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either.  This is the real focus and what needs to be taken seriously.  I am asking for enlightenment!  Absent any, maybe my light hearted comments are too on-point.

[cline]

However, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either.

You can check what is going into the feasibility study on JTA's website.

http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74

Like fsujax said, this is the first step in the process to obtain funds from the Feds.