The BP at 8th & Liberty . . . . "Rooms for Rent"

[AlexS]

So after all these posts, does anyone actually know where the advertised rooms are located and if they are legitimate or not ? Wouldn't this be the first question to answer ?

[strider]

John, Stider used to be pro-Springfield before he realized there was more money in "recovery houses" than in trying to fix up old houses. Now he has a vested interest in the status quo, because an impoverished and down trodden community is less likely to complain about his business. He makes a point of telling everyone who is intersted in Springfield that they would be much happier up in Northshore, and then tells everyone in the community that wants clean and safe businesses in the community that they are out of touch, and that gucci is out of reach, when really, we all just want a place where we dont have to wade through piles of litter, and step over drug dealers. BP is just fine, he just doesnt understand why people in the community might be upset over him selling pipes and razors. In fairness, when Matt and I spoke to him about the pipes, he took them out of plain sight.

When this post was put up, rather than address it publicly, I PM’d the writer and simply asked that he not misquote or misrepresent me or what I had said in the past.  He got a little perturbed at me that I did that. In his last PM, he said I should have addressed it in the public forum.  I thought it was personal and should not be addressed here, but as he asked…

I was a contractor but we stopped taking serious jobs long before the economy turned down.  We decided we didn’t want to do it anymore.  Anyone who truly wants to know why, PM me and I will be happy to tell you.

As to our vested interest in the status quo, that is just a ridiculous statement.  While we do run a non-profit half way house and have other sober living facilities, not just in Springfield, our clients need and want to live in the same kind of community as all of you, preferably a successful, urban community. And a well informed, successful community would be less likely to complain about what we do than the Springfield that exists today or as described incorrectly by DTP as what I want.

As far as me telling anyone interested in Springfield that they would be much happier in Northshore? Yes, in a way, I have to a couple, but not really.  I told a couple of people who posted that they were disgusted with Springfield and ready to buy elsewhere that if they really gave up on Springfield, then look at the Northshore area.  And, if you read the related posts, I tell them about Northshore after I have told them not to give up on Springfield.  A far cry from what DTP represented me as saying.

I have never said it was wrong to want a safe and clean community. No one, except perhaps the true criminal element, wants anything less.  I have said that if you blame only the homeless, only the poor, only the rooming houses and only HUD housing for all the crime and litter and only believe that the answer is to move those groups of people out, then you are very wrong.  If too many in this community feel that way and do not want to accept the realities of the situation, we will continue to have a deserted Main Street, the Proton patients will go elsewhere and so will all the coming development money.

I also have to be fair and correct the post that I currently live in Springfield.  I do not.  I did for many years, I still own property here and keep a business or two here.  And I still have friends here.  I care about Springfield as much now as I did before and as much as anyone else.

And, I might add, after three pages and all these posts, have any of you called and checked the “room to rent” flyer out?  And, have you ever noticed that some actually advertise rooms for rent on the SPAR Council forum?  Are they all bad people too? Or can you make those judgments solely by where you see the ad? Perhaps I do not always say things in the right way, but the bottom line will always be that if we care about this community and want it to succeed, then we must recognize that everyone has the right to live here and we must include the entire community in the process of revitalization. Anything less guarantees failure.

[zoo]

Springfield is and will be for quite some time, a low income neighborhood, regardless of all the hype.

Between 2004 and 2008, the property values in the Springfield historic district rose more than $130,000,000 (yes, $130 million), as a result of all of the hard renovation and redevelopment work being done by residents and business owners. Is living here an investment? Damn right it is, but not just of money. I personally believe in the area's history, its active residents who go out of their way to make it feel like a community, and the businesses that want to support, not stifle, the current changes.

The current changes are good for everyone here... YES, especially low-income community members. Property taxes are capped for those who have always been here (3%/year, I believe) and longtime residents will benefit by increased safety, increased property value, improvements in transit, the addition of nearby jobs, proof that education pays off, and a reduction of negative social temptations.

With 44% of the residents at 15K a year or more, how can you not consider this area low income?

This is information can be found in the LISC MetroEdge Retail Survey (2008). What it also said on or near that page, and what was conveniently left out, is that the neighborhood is in transition, and that the statistic is changing. If this doesn't work for anyone's existing business model, they either should adjust their business model or leave the area.

Change is good, as is the failure of the sheep costumes used by several wolves in the area...

[zoo]

Don't know exactly when, but it pains me more than anyone that the lot does not have a rentable building on it.

If I had to make a timing prediction, it will be after a couple of the nation's banks (Citigroup, and maybe Bank of America) are nationalized through preferred stock conversions, and the credit market for small commercial projects stabilizes. If you have any insight into when this will happen, please update me!

Not having rent-ready space on Main, now and when reconstruction of the street is complete, will definitely be a significant hurdle to creating commercial corridor momentum. If there is a plus side, I think it's that the businesses that are wanting to come in are legitimate enough to not tolerate non-renovated commercial space, as many have in the past.

[Johnny]

I see nothing wrong or bully-ish of expecting a business to be a good neighbor. Support that business if it does not support you? Wow again

As for putting my money where my mouth is?? That would be a funny comment if it were not so sad. I bought my house in 2005 at what now appears to be a very, very inflated market price due to the housing "crisis". I have a wife & baby here. I'm sure with this economy and the fact the city AND businesses in the area are not supporting those spending money on bettering the neighborhood and instead justify selling brilo pads and razor blades, I'll never be able to sell for what I owe. So, apparently, my family will be here for quite some time, like it or not. So you can keep your cute little responses.

I am all for those of my neighbors that do not have much $ and am happy to call them neighbors. But, they are not standing on the corner with a single in their hand, or snatching stuff off my porch when I run inside to grab a screwdriver just so they can pay for their next high. Giving someone the means to get high is not supporting those on drugs, it's helping them stay in that cycle and you are not being a good neighbor by doing so. You can continue to spin the words anyway you see fit.

[thelakelander]

I'll just do what I have to do to keep this site clean.  I hope that everyone will understand.  This thread will be locked until site moderators have a chance to clean it up and get back on track.

[jbm32206]

The personal attacks have been removed....the thread will be returned and opened; however, it will be monitored and if the personal attacks start back up, then it'll once again be removed and will not be placed back or reopened....so please, let's stay on track with the topic.

[strider]

Hey Zoo, thanks for quoting me.  I’d like to return the favor:

Between 2004 and 2008, the property values in the Springfield historic district rose more than $130,000,000 (yes, $130 million), as a result of all of the hard renovation and redevelopment work being done by residents and business owners. Is living here an investment? Damn right it is, but not just of money.

That’s great.  But the fact that 44% of the residents are at a 15K or below income level is with these figures, correct?  So that means that while all those property value increases occurred unless the home owners sold their house, they did not realize anything for it.  With the homestead cap, if a low income family owned the house, the taxes did not raise with the values.  If they rented, then their rent went up.  Which may have made them poorer.  In addition, we all know that property values have been falling at a record pace in 2008 and in 2009, which, according to the city, won’t be reflected in tax values until later this year, which is what I am guessing you based your numbers on.  If I had to guess, we have lost at least 30 to 40% of that four year gain. What’s your guess?

I personally believe in the area's history, its active residents who go out of their way to make it feel like a community, and the businesses that want to support, not stifle, the current changes.

What changes are you talking about here?  And how does a business “stifle” that change?
What I have seen as changes is fewer successful businesses, fewer houses being built, fewer houses being worked on, values dropping and a few people not wanting to accept the reality of it all.

This is information can be found in the LISC MetroEdge Retail Survey (2008). What it also said on or near that page, and what was conveniently left out, is that the neighborhood is in transition, and that the statistic is changing. If this doesn't work for anyone's existing business model, they either should adjust their business model or leave the area.

Thanks for confirming that I had my information correct.  But it wasn’t conveniently left out, it wasn’t relevant.  Of course it is going to change.  The questions to be asked now are by how much will it changes and which way will it go? A difficult question for anyone who wants to open a business here.

A quick look at the past shows that the types of businesses that most say they want, like nicer restaurants and clubs, nice and clean retail shops, etc have not had a great track record here. Main Street above 20th is in much better shape in regards to commercial development.  Historic Springfield looks more like a wasteland. We can blame the construction for some of it, we can blame the “bad greedy property owners“…hey, we can find someone to blame for it all if we want.  But that will not change anything.  Nor will not recognizing that this area is and will be for quite some time yet a low income area, as it certainly is in the eyes of commercial developers.

To affect the kind of changes many want, we must go through the long process of proving that commercial ventures can succeed here.  To do that, we must attract the right kinds of businesses.  Not the right kind per SPAR Council, not the right kind by me.  But the right kind that has a market now and will have one long enough to be successful.  That is why it is important to acknowledge what Springfield really is and how it is really seen by potential commercial developers.

[ChriswUfGator]

Hey, Strider, man, you're just never gonna win this one on here. Trust me on that. I had a bunch of rentals in Springfield, and I'm real familiar with the neighborhood and the usual people who live there. I could keep you in stitches for hours telling you about some of the crap I went through in that place. But every time I tried to discuss it on this message board, I get called a 'slumlord' or I get told I don't know what I'm talking about, or this or that or the other.

I even went down the same road you are going down now, and said that fixing up the Springfield termite traps won't do much until the 800-lb gorilla leaves the room and half the neighborhood isn't living in endemic poverty. In return, I got people implying I was racist, elitist, and posting articles trying to say that Springfield was not a blighted neighborhood, and one lady even tried to tell me it has higher average income than Riverside/Avondale or San Marco, and that Springfield is wealthier because they have less debt due to less inflated property values. Ya. Sure. Ok. It's a never-ending cycle though, you just can't win with this. Look up some of my old threads.

At one point when it really heated up I even made a list of stuff that I bet them could find in no time if I drove to Springfield, like empty malt liquor bottles laying all over, live chickens and stray dogs running around, used condoms, stolen shopping carts full of crap, fried chicken bones littering the sidewalks, prostitutes walking around, yada, yada, yada. They turned that around on me, telling me it's my own fault because people like me didn't help enough to clean up the neighborhood, and how Springfield just has a bad rap. I'm telling ya, you just can't win with these guys.

They see something that you and I don't. For whatever reason, these diehard Springfield'ers are willing to look past all the crap that goes on there, because they're convinced it's gonna to turn into the next ponte vedra. Who knows, maybe it will. Me, I'm done arguing about it one way or the other. You'll never convince them, and vice versa.

[Johnny]

You guys have convinced me. I think it would be wise to sell crack in my backyard. The market supports it. Who gives a shit if it hurts the neighborhood, it's what sells that matters! Thanks guys!

[AlexS]

The discussions would be more fruitful if people would provide facts rather than emotion. It still has not been posted where these rooms for rent are located and if they are legitimate or not. If property values are quoted, it would be nice to know if it's based on assessed value, market value, interpolated value based on recent sales, etc. It should also be clear if discussions refer to 32206 area code or the true Historic Springfield area.
It seems some of the same discussions which have been had, get brought up over and over again regardless of the thread topic with little new information added. Just my 2 cents.

[thelakelander]

GREAT POST!

[jason_contentdg]

Hey, Strider, man, you're just never gonna win this one on here. Trust me on that. I had a bunch of rentals in Springfield, and I'm real familiar with the neighborhood and the usual people who live there. I could keep you in stitches for hours telling you about some of the crap I went through in that place. But every time I tried to discuss it on this message board, I get called a 'slumlord' or I get told I don't know what I'm talking about, or this or that or the other.

I even went down the same road you are going down now, and said that fixing up the Springfield termite traps won't do much until the 800-lb gorilla leaves the room and half the neighborhood isn't living in endemic poverty. In return, I got people implying I was racist, elitist, and posting articles trying to say that Springfield was not a blighted neighborhood, and one lady even tried to tell me it has higher average income than Riverside/Avondale or San Marco, and that Springfield is wealthier because they have less debt due to less inflated property values. Ya. Sure. Ok. It's a never-ending cycle though, you just can't win with this. Look up some of my old threads.

At one point when it really heated up I even made a list of stuff that I bet them could find in no time if I drove to Springfield, like empty malt liquor bottles laying all over, live chickens and stray dogs running around, used condoms, stolen shopping carts full of crap, fried chicken bones littering the sidewalks, prostitutes walking around, yada, yada, yada. They turned that around on me, telling me it's my own fault because people like me didn't help enough to clean up the neighborhood, and how Springfield just has a bad rap. I'm telling ya, you just can't win with these guys.

They see something that you and I don't. For whatever reason, these diehard Springfield'ers are willing to look past all the crap that goes on there, because they're convinced it's gonna to turn into the next ponte vedra. Who knows, maybe it will. Me, I'm done arguing about it one way or the other. You'll never convince them, and vice versa.

Or maybe some of us just look past it because we love the neighborhood, our neighbors, and our house.  I would f'n hate it if it became Ponte Vedra, and don't feel much sympathy for the people that moved in because it was the next big deal in real estate, and I doubt many of them are true Springfielders.

[fatcat]

I just stopped by the gas station and bought a bottle of diet coke. Here is my field report:

1. There is no 'room for rent' flier. The only flier i can see is 'lost chihuahua' There is a room for rent sign at the labor pool on the other side of the liberty.
2. The place is clean and a significant improvement compare to the previous. Yes. i did visit the gas station before to rent U-haul and buy gas.
3. Within the high traffic area, there is cheap juice $0.35; T-U $0.75 and some cold drink. Beer is only 1 out of 4 options.   The other 3 are non-alcoholic. There is also a coffee/slush counter. The coffee is not too expensive but smells nicer than the McDonald/Burger king variety.
4. The bathroom is clean. Comparable to home depot.

I have made a point to stop by several gas stations in Jacksonville in last few days. This is one of the nicer kind. I did not see razor blade in this one but saw it in one Kangeroo in Mandarin. I personally consider it an improvement to the previous one. I say any improvement should be encouraged. I will gladly trade the Shell at 8th and Blvd for this one.

[downtownparks]

Give me a break. First, Chris, I think the reason you got called out is because you were so adamant about how much of a desolate wasteland Springfield was. you don't like it. We get it. Cool. Sorry you had a bad experience. I think the issue came about because you worked a bit too hard trying to tell us we were all cracked. That always will set the tables for a confrontation.

I wasnt the one who brought up the flyers. I never saw them, I dont know anything about that issue. Second, my comment all along has been BP is basically ok. He has had some littler problems, but that wasn't my primary concern. Several of us noticed the pipes being sold, and asked him to stop selling them. He removed them from plain view. As far as what sorts of malt beverages he carries, I personally cant begrudge him anything on that front. Beer is perfectly legal to sell. there really isn't much discussion beyond that.