Oral Explosion Coming to San Marco

[BridgeTroll]

Perhaps this would help...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/914/115/

[downtownparks]

Moncrief is inner city? Its further away than Ortega!

[Steve]

This conversation is my point - realistically, from a geographical perspective, Durkeeville and Riverside aren't all that different.  Now, there are certainly huge socioeconomic differences between these areas, but these neighborhoods have more similarities than it may seem.

To settle an bullcrap bickering, let's use the term "Old City".  this shall refer to the old city limits.  Please substitute Old City whenever I said Inner City.

[avonjax]

This is for RiversideGator
What do you consider good architecture in Jacksonville?
I have noticed that you think almost all the buildings that are talked about on this site are horrible..
I am NOT trying to be mean, start an argument or criticize your opinion, I am just curious.
I live in Avondale so I appreciate the architecture of our neighborhood and I know you do too, but I only know what you don't like.
Thanks

[thelakelander]

What's the proper term for Riverside & San Marco?  What would you suggest Jacksonville do to improve the urban core that includes these places, as well as the neighborhoods known as the inner city?  Is it a lost cause?

You edited your post after I replied to it, so to reply to the rest of it:

I've said what I believe the issues are that contribute to JAX's sprawl problem, which are horrendous urban planning by a small group of self-interested politicians, the virtual abandonment of downtown, and the lack of any viable public transportation system.

As to what to do to improve the "inner city" areas, which speaking accurately if not politically correctly, would be Springfield, Moncreif, etc., and not Riverside and San Marco, then if the City addresses any or all of the three things I've just identified, then I expect that would go a long way towards a symbiotic solution for these neighborhoods, as they are close to downtown.

But other than that, to a large extent this stuff happens on its own. It is slowly occurring in Springfield, and the other areas will take longer. But when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, this process is more an issue of one demographic group trickling out to other places and another group moving in from other places. And I hate to break it to you, but there's always going to be a "poor" or "inner city" or whatever other term you want to use, area of town. It's the nature of our economy and society. You can relocate people all you want, but at the end of the day they have to go somewhere, right? The true solution is addressing the causes of endemic poverty, which as a society we don't seem to want to do.

I don't care about there being lower income neighborhoods, as long as they are safe, walkable, vibrant and properly integrated into the rest of the urban core.  Anyway, terminology aside, we're essentially saying the same thing about what needs to be done to improve the urban core (better transit, connectivity, planning, etc.). 

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm not shooting the messenger. 

No, that Joe fellow was shooting the messenger. Albeit with something of a boomerang instead of an arrow.

Is there a term that you would apply that includes the entire original city as one?

Other than "historical" or other generic terms, no. And there is no need to coin a term, since they are all different largely unconnected areas. Additionally, if you get into the history of it, they were all developed at different times. I'm not sure "original city" would even apply to RS and SM, as they are more "original suburbs", and in any event aren't the same area.

Do you think Jacksonville can make these neighborhoods places that won't require residents to drive into Baymeadows?  If so, what are the steps that you believe the city should take?

1: Scrap this FUBAR bus system, and build out a commuter rail system that doesn't just go 3 blocks.

2: Stop dicking around with downtown. When people approach the City and say they want to put a school or whatnot there, the City should be asking "How high do you want me to jump?" not "How much are you going to pay me?"

3: Quit allowing people to tear down higher density structures in the urban core just to build lower density structures, or zero density structures like parking garages.

4: Economic incentives for people who build housing, and who open businesses in certain categories (drug stores, grocery stores, etc.) in neighborhoods where you want to create an urban area.

5: Economic incentives for corporate citizens to occupy urban areas instead of sending them to the sprawling office parks that your Dad owns on the southside.

6: Sell off all the stagnant property the City owns in the urban core, and offer development incentives.

7: Scrap the better Jacksonville plan and convert any remaining funding to the rail system. It's really only contributing to the city's sprawl problems anyway.

[Steve]

I would agree with your points, but add one thing:  Give the DDRB some teeth.  Some people come to the city with these god awful designs, and we say sure.  It's like we're the fat girl in her Senior Year without a date to the prom, and we go with whomever asks us.

[thelakelander]

Is there a term that you would apply that includes the entire original city as one?

Other than "historical" or other generic terms, no. And there is no need to coin a term, since they are all different largely unconnected areas. Additionally, if you get into the history of it, they were all developed at different times. I'm not sure "original city" would even apply to RS and SM, as they are more "original suburbs", and in any event aren't the same area.

Riverside was never a city of its own.  It was a streetcar suburb like Springfield, Brentwood and Moncrief.  The original suburbs were areas considered a part of downtown today (ie. LaVilla, Brooklyn, East Jacksonville, etc.)  San Marco was once a part of South Jacksonville, which became a part of the city in the early 1930s.  Up until consolidation in 1968, the City of Jacksonville was comparable in size to the present day city limits of places like Miami and San Francisco.  County consolidation, to a degree, makes it difficult to lump Jax (pre consolidated city + suburbs) in with cities like the ones mentioned above (pre consolidated city alone).  Nevertheless, places like Indianapolis do prove that consolidated cities can have a vibrant core, with good leadership leading the way.  

Do you think Jacksonville can make these neighborhoods places that won't require residents to drive into Baymeadows?  If so, what are the steps that you believe the city should take?

1: Scrap this FUBAR bus system, and build out a commuter rail system that doesn't just go 3 blocks.

2: Stop dicking around with downtown. When people approach the City and say they want to put a school or whatnot there, the City should be asking "How high do you want me to jump?" not "How much are you going to pay me?"

3: Quit allowing people to tear down higher density structures in the urban core just to build lower density structures, or zero density structures like parking garages.

4: Economic incentives for people who build housing, and who open businesses in certain categories (drug stores, grocery stores, etc.) in neighborhoods where you want to create an urban area.

5: Economic incentives for corporate citizens to occupy urban areas instead of sending them to the sprawling office parks that your Dad owns on the southside.

6: Sell off all the stagnant property the City owns in the urban core, and offer development incentives.

7: Scrap the better Jacksonville plan and convert any remaining funding to the rail system. It's really only contributing to the city's sprawl problems anyway.

Great points!

[ChriswUfGator]

Perhaps this would help...

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/914/115/

That first picture in that article just about makes you want to cry, doesn't it?

1/2 of everything in that photo is now vacant land or an empty parking lot.

[Ocklawaha]

Moncrief is inner city? Its further away than Ortega!

Uh, historic Moncrief is 3.5 miles from Main and Bay, while Ortega is 4.5.

Oral Explosion.... in a old strip club location.   I'm guessing they are seeking a male dominated consumer base??  It certainly takes 'have it your way' to a new level.

If you really think this might refer only to a male dominated activity, better go back to Playboy 101, you must have missed some instruction. Bet the burgers and buns will be as great as the breast and thighs next door.

No doubt the Skyway and Streetcar along with a trolley bus shuttle system would change the face of the whole of the old City - which I'll call the core.

As for the building?

GEEZE Y'ALL!

Are Stephendare, TheLakelander and I the only people on this site that know what "DWELL MAGAZINE" is all about? Ever read "METROPOLIS MAGAZINE?" This building cheers the future, I love the simple lines, the ultra modern clean, the appearence that it just landed from Thermia in the Klatu Nebula. Miminalism and Modernity at it's finest in Jacksonville - Who would have thought lightning would strike here in the Colonial-Prairie Style Capital of the South?

I LOVE IT!


OCKLAWAHA

[Steve]

Another thing - we should have some sort of penalty for developers who tear down buildings that "intend" on replacing the building, and never do.  This is a real tragedy.  Sometimes, a project falls apart.  Other times, a person really doesn't intend to replace a building, they just want it gone.  Either way, it needs to stop.

In the case of Jacksonville's worst named eatery, I think this guy at least intends to go through with this.  It would seem like a lot to hire an archtect  to do renderings and floorplans just to take down a building htat really couldn't have been in that bad of shape.

[ChriswUfGator]

I would agree with your points, but add one thing:  Give the DDRB some teeth.  Some people come to the city with these god awful designs, and we say sure.  It's like we're the fat girl in her Senior Year without a date to the prom, and we go with whomever asks us.

Ya, but what really throws me for a loop is that our particular fat girl regularly gets asked out by Brad Pitt, and then tells him to F* off, preferring to go to the prom with no date instead. This idiot administration has recently run off a law school, a med school, and no doubt a gazillion other things that we probably don't even know about, from locating in our urban core.

Meanwhile, they gouge on parking enforcement and property taxes to the point where no corporation wants to locate there, and the ones who've traditionally been there continue to slowly trickle out. And of course the recent icing on the cake is, they finally get someone (Tony Sleiman) who's evidently dumb enough to try and tackle The Landing, and then they screw him to the point where he's inevitably going to back out of the deal and the place will continue to languish.

Seriously, WTF? I don't get it. It really is municipal suicide. I keep waiting for City Hall to relocate to one of Herb's office parks on Gate Parkway.

[archiphreak]

I love how my simple comments creates such a stir.  And, yes (to several of you), I do see the irony in the chosen name.  I even got a small chuckle with a raised eyebrow at it.  But forgive me for being more than a little bitter at the fact that Jacksonville seems to REFUSE to make any progress forward.  I've lived near or in this city for the better part of 20 years and the only thing I can see that has really changed is the roads are wider and people drive faster.  There has been no significant (or even not so significant) development in the urban core in the last 20 years.  In the 1970's (as reported by this website) the city officials at that time had a wonderful plan for downtown and it's future.  That was quickly shelved in favor or more roads and sub-urban sprawl to the south and east of the core.  And since then it's been business as usual.  It's sickening and it pisses me off to see a city like ours, with so much potential, and so many of the younger generations wanting change, wasting each and every opportunity that comes along to improve and finally start to move into the 21st century.  Who can look around and honestly say they are happy with this city and the direction it's taking?  If I've missed something over the last couple months PLEASE point it out to me.  Because I see nothing happening lately to make me "lighten up".  Things need to change.  We've waited long enough for the city officials to pull their heads out of their ass and begin to HELP our city instead of continuing to beat down every positive force that threatens to move in.
Grrrr.

[thelakelander]

This is a sad comparison, but it does show the potential of the "Old City".

LaVilla - 1950


LaVilla - 2006 (same area)


One was vibrant and one is not.  One was walkable and one is not.  One was dense and the other is not.  One had buildings that embraced the sidewalks and streets.  The other is dominated with parking lots and suburban style buildings with huge setbacks.  To recreate a vibrant core, we need to get back to the design principles that originally made it vibrant in the first place.  Large and small, we need more "Oral Explosions".

[thelakelander]

In the case of Jacksonville's worst named eatery, I think this guy at least intends to go through with this.  It would seem like a lot to hire an archtect  to do renderings and floorplans just to take down a building htat really couldn't have been in that bad of shape.

They must be pretty serious.  Its already under construction.