Oral Explosion Coming to San Marco

[thelakelander]

The stripclub building was torn down and San Marco is now getting a genuine piece of Modern Architecture to brag about.  Instead of making moronic jokes why don't you all hail these young Architects for doing GOOD WORK in Jacksonville.  It is certainly few and far between enough to garner praise from every reasonably intelligent person in this city.  We bitch day in and day out about all the crappy design and short sited buildings that go up in this city at an alarming rate, and now when faced with a well designed, well thought, attractive infill for what was once one of the nastiest strip clubs in town, you crack jokes and say it's "embarrassing"?  WTF!!??

While the building itself seems well done (architecturally speaking), the site design seems pretty poor.  Walls on most sides that do not allow for much street level interaction.  In a sense, it reminds me of the downtown library in which the building is a fantastic design by Robert A.M. Stern but, as has been mentioned on this site previously, the interactions the building has with the street leave a lot to be desired.  It could have been so much more.

That said, it's good to see some positive development in the area. 

Looking at the plan, the south side is a wall because that's the side of an existing building.  The west is a wall because that's the back of the site and dumpster area.  All the glass faces San Marco Blvd (east wall) and Nira Street (north wall).  The common dining area abuts the sides of the building that will be seen from the streets and sidewalks.  The windows, facing the sidewalk, are large enough for the building's interior activities to still engage and attract the average pedestrian (The library does not do this).  On top of this, the main entrance forces people to use the sidewalks along these streets to get in.  While the developer picked a funny name for the project, the architectural design is pretty solid, imo.

[ChriswUfGator]

If the average Jacksonville development incorporated most of these principles, Jacksonville would be a walkable city.

Jacksonville will never be a walking city until the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments. If you compare JAX to the US cities where its actually easier to walk than to have a car, like Charleston, Boston, New York, or San Francisco, you will find a common theme: The lack of sprawl issues like we have here. Everywhere you need to go is contained within an urban base of a few square miles, and this is why walking works.

This city, on the other hand, is ridiculous. I put 16k+ miles a year on my vehicles, just driving around town. Until we get to the point where most of the places you need to go aren't a 15+ mile trip each way, then I'm afraid it's just never going to happen. And a second sub-issue here is that we also have no viable public transportation, which is another key to becoming a walking city. JTA's overloaded road-based system, where the buses are routinely 30+ minutes late and it takes 2 hours to get from Riverside to UNF, only caters to those who cannot afford cars. It is not a real public transport system, and nobody uses it unless they have to. At a minimum, these issues need to be addressed before you're going to have any real progress.

[copperfiend]

Jacksonville will never be a walking city until the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments.

Unfortunately, I think this is the truth.

[RiversideGator]

Chris: Move to Riverside/Avondale.  You can go for weeks without having to drive out of the area.

As for the proposed building, it is complete garbage.  Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly.  This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well.  The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.

[RiversideGator]

Jacksonville will never be a walking city until the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments.

Unfortunately, I think this is the truth.

Jacksonville is a walkable city if you are in the right neighborhoods.  Hate suburbia?  Dont go to the Southside.  Live in Springfield, Riverside or downtown.  You can bike or walk for most essentials in these neighborhoods.

[thelakelander]

You can still have a walkable core and horrid sprawl.  Chicagoland is a great example.  While Downtown Charleston may be walkable, the neck, North Charleston and Mount Pleasant aren't.  The difference between Jax and Charleston is suburbs like North Charleston would be within our actual city limits.  Once we get over the fact that Jacksonville is really a city with suburbs all wrapped up in one, enhancing walkability in the old city isn't as hard as it seems.  The old city was once walkable, but a ton of buildings have been torn down and replaced with suburban structures and parking lots over the last 50 years.  If every development in the core had to be designed with the priniciples incorporated in this Oral Explosion project, the core would indeed eventually become walkable again.

Images of a walkable Jacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/783/120/

[The Compound]

Will there be an Oral Explosion with Five Guys?

[thelakelander]

Chris: Move to Riverside/Avondale.  You can go for weeks without having to drive out of the area.

As for the proposed building, it is complete garbage.  Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly.  This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well.  The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.

Its already under construction.

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris: Move to Riverside/Avondale.  You can go for weeks without having to drive out of the area.

As for the proposed building, it is complete garbage.  Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly.  This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well.  The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.

Oh I love Riverside, I've lived here for years, I'm over on Cherry Street. But I still have to get school, which is over off Baymeadows, and I have to go to the car wash, have to go out of the neighborhood to buy clothes or go to the mall, visit friends, etc. This is the most spread-out city I've ever been to, the only thing that comes close is L.A., but then they have 13 times our population so you can almost understand it. It's really mind-boggling how unnecessarily spread out this place is. I'm in Boston a lot, and they have 3/4ths of Duval County's population living in 1/20th of the area, and it doesn't feel crowded at all.

[thelakelander]

If you took that drive from Riverside to Baymeadows in Tampa, you would end up in St. Petersburg or Temple Terrace.  If it were in Miami, you might end up in Miami Beach, Hialeah or Aventura, depending on your direction.  Jacksonville is only "large" land-wise because it is consolidated with Duval County.

If we take away the imaginary municipal limit lines, metro Boston sprawls up into New Hampshire.  Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando basically run together now with leap frog development.  Atlanta takes up a significant chunk of North Georgia.  There's now a continuous line of sprawl development that links Cincinnati with Dayton.  Jacksonville's sprawl is no different from what happened to the majority of America's cities once auto travel became dominant.  We just don't have a dominant core like many of the older, larger cities do.

[ChriswUfGator]

You can still have a walkable core and horrid sprawl.  Chicagoland is a great example.  While Downtown Charleston may be walkable, the neck, North Charleston and Mount Pleasant aren't.

The difference is you don't HAVE to go to any of those suburbs. You may choose to for one reason or another, such as lower housing prices, but if you already live downtown then travel to the suburbs is not a necessity. In both charleston and chicago, you have countless options for obtaining anything at all that you might need without ever having to leave the urban core, and with the exception of housing, without having to pay a premium for it. That's a key.

In Jacksonville, there is no neighborhood where you can ever get everything you would need in daily life without getting into a car and having to drive long distances. It's just the way this place is laid out.

[Steve]

It's not the layout, it's the ammenities in the urban core - they just aren't here like the burbs.  If I want to go clothes shopping, 5 Points, San Marco, and Avondale have some great boutiqies stuff, but If I want to do major shopping, I'm going to the beltway.  Same goes for electronics (for the 6 people these days who are actually buying consumer electronics).

Chicago is a good example, as mentioned before.  They have some of the worst planned burbs, but if I live in the city (not just in downtown), I can find what I need in town (except IKEA)

[ChriswUfGator]

If you took that drive from Riverside to Baymeadows in Tampa, you would end up in St. Petersburg or Temple Terrace.  If it were in Miami, you might end up in Miami Beach, Hialeah or Aventura, depending on your direction.  Jacksonville is only "large" land-wise because it is consolidated with Duval County.

If we take away the imaginary municipal limit lines, metro Boston sprawls up into New Hampshire.  Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando basically run together now with leap frog development.  Atlanta takes up a significant chunk of North Georgia.  There's now a continuous line of sprawl development that links Cincinnati with Dayton.  Jacksonville's sprawl is no different from what happened to the majority of America's cities once auto travel became dominant.  We just don't have a dominant core like many of the older, larger cities do.

Yes, but none of that's the point. None of those you mentioned, except for Boston, is a "walking city". And I strongly disagree with your assessment of Boston's layout, as it really isn't a sprawl situation. The surrounding towns and cities are very socially unconnected with the city, and most people who live in Wakefield or Newton or Woburn actually live and work there. Each of those is a self-sufficient city in its own right, and many of them have been there as long as Boston itself.

A lot of people certainly commute, sure, mainly the types who have kids and want a yard, etc., but even then with the T system you've got trains running several times an hour that get you downtown in 15 minutes. You still don't need a car. It's really apples and oranges. And if you decide to live downtown, you don't have to leave it to go to the suburbs, though the suburbs may commute to downtown.

Again, there is no place you can live in Jacksonville and never have to drive long distances to do something or another. It doesn't exist. And tampa, orlando, etc., were never walking cities to begin with, and have the same typical florida sprawl problems. The frustrating thing about Jacksonville is, it had it and lost it.

[thelakelander]

There are thousands of people who live in Inner City Jax who don't have to travel to places like Baymeadows, Orange Park and Deerwood on a regular basis.  By the same token, there are thousands of people who live in the burbs and commute to Downtown Charleston because they can't afford the historic district's housing costs, ditto for Boston.  There are thousands more, that live in the city and have no reason to ever go downtown.  It ultimately depends on your personal situation.  

I agree, that urban Jax does not offer the same quality of life that one would get in a city with a vibrant urban core.  This is where I believe we can improve the easiest.  But it will take a change in zoning (the entire core needs to embrace the land design principles used by Oral Explosions).   

[Steve]

On the note of the worst named eatery in Jacksonville, the building is not award winning, but not everyone will be.  I'm not as concert with the materials used and it's archtectural qualities as how it meets the street.

I'd rather stucco crap that met the street well over something like Two Prudential Plaza or Independent Square, which might look great from the skyline, but terrible to someone walking on the sidewalk.