Springfield: rentals and other issues

[strider]

Every person who has posted here is correct.  Springfield is not as bad as it once was.  Springfield is better than most believe.  Springfield is still not as good as we would like to believe. No amount of “discussion” will change it.   For every “good” story about a rental place, someone can find a bad one.  Just the way life is.  Not just in Springfield, but all over, in every city and every community.  Live in a gated community?  Bad things can happen there.  Live in Springfield?  Bad things can happen there.  No difference really.

That is the fact we all have to understand.  That is the message we really hope everyone gets.  Springfield is just like everywhere else in most ways, and as a urban community, it is even better than other places in some ways.

We do have to be careful though.  Springfield is better than it was six years ago, but with the economic conditions the way they are and as Springfield is an urban community, things can change and go back the other way.  We all need to recognize that and watch how things are handled.  Not all low income renters are bad, not all Section 8 is bad, not all landlords and absentee owners are bad.  Heck, not all single family home owners are good either.  All of us, owner, renter, landlord, rich or poor must truly watch out for one another in theses trying times to insure we gain as a community, not lose.  To accomblish this, some may have to support businesses and people they would not normally support.  One of the good things about Springfield is the diversity of the peole and businesses that exist here.

[AlexS]

This is good discussion, but not really related to the shutdown of the Pearl. Maybe one of the Admins can split the thread.

[jbm32206]

Done

[AlexS]

Not all low income renters are bad, not all Section 8 is bad, not all landlords and absentee owners are bad.  Heck, not all single family home owners are good either.  All of us, owner, renter, landlord, rich or poor must truly watch out for one another in theses trying times to insure we gain as a community, not lose.  To accomblish this, some may have to support businesses and people they would not normally support.  One of the good things about Springfield is the diversity of the peole and businesses that exist here.

I am willing to support businesses and people I don't normally support.
I just don't see how that stops people from throwing their trash (lottery tickets, styrofoam containers, chicken bones, malt liqour bottles, cigarette wrappers, etc) wherever they like rather than in trash bins. What would stop people from doing that ? Or is our only choice to hope that these people get replaced by some with better habits or constantly clean up after them ? Why do (many) low income people (the majority segment in Springfield) have no problem with this or help cleaning up ?

[ChriswUfGator]

Not all low income renters are bad, not all Section 8 is bad, not all landlords and absentee owners are bad.  Heck, not all single family home owners are good either.  All of us, owner, renter, landlord, rich or poor must truly watch out for one another in theses trying times to insure we gain as a community, not lose.  To accomblish this, some may have to support businesses and people they would not normally support.  One of the good things about Springfield is the diversity of the peole and businesses that exist here.

I am willing to support businesses and people I don't normally support.
I just don't see how that stops people from throwing their trash (lottery tickets, styrofoam containers, chicken bones, malt liqour bottles, cigarette wrappers, etc) wherever they like rather than in trash bins. What would stop people from doing that ? Or is our only choice to hope that these people get replaced by some with better habits or constantly clean up after them ? Why do (many) low income people (the majority segment in Springfield) have no problem with this or help cleaning up ?

The problem is you've got two completely separate spheres of life going on in Springfield, both trying relatively unsuccessfully to coexist with each other. There are the folks like yourself, strider, soxfan, and downtownparks, etc., who go into the neighborhood and really care about the place and are trying to make it nicer.

But then you've got the people who've been living there forever, and who are generally uneducated and economically disadvantaged and a disproportionate number of whom seem to be unemployed, or drug addicts, or generally just not very friendly or rational. This group couldn't care less about the neighborhood, it's condition, or what goes on in it, and these are the same people who steal your a/c units, break your windows, and trash your stuff, etc. They ARE the neighborhood's problem, but unfortunately they also comprise a big chunk of the residents, so it's not easily fixable.

And this is exactly why doing anything with rental property is so difficult in that neighborhood, it's nobody's fault really, but the reality is you're dealing with a lot of people who just don't give a $h!t about anything, much less your property or their obligations under a lease agreement. What seems clear and convincing to you may require a set of values that they just don't subscribe to, mainly because they've never had the experiences in life that tend to give you an idea of how you should act in a given situation, or teach you to take pride in your work and in your belongings. These are folks who've never been on an airplane, have never achieved more than a high-school education at best, have never had a new car, don't know how to balance a checkbook (even if the bank would give them an account), etc., etc. By and large, they just don't have the same value-system as you do, and at its root the problem really is a culture-clash.

This even repeats itself amongst the businesses in springfield. If you pay attention, the businesses all cater to one group or the other, and the two remain almost completely separate. You've got the pawn shops, liquor stores, and fried chicken stands catering to the one set, and then you had/have the stuff like 9th & Main, Boomtown, etc., catering to the other set.

But yes, I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said the only option is to wait until they get replaced by people with better habits. Which, of course, still doesn't fix the problem, it just moves it to another neighborhood.

[sheclown]

In your two-class distinction, Chris, you forgot about the decent poor people living among us.  People who have this "habit"  going for them that you don't... Compassion.

[jbm32206]

It's not just the low income residents that act like morons and show no respect....there's plenty of those with a college education, higher paying positions, flown and own new cars...that don't give a damn.

[ChriswUfGator]

In your two-class distinction, Chris, you forgot about the decent poor people living among us.  People who have this "habit"  going for them that you don't... Compassion.

I was not describing a two-class system. And I'm certainly aware that there are MANY layers in between the indigent folks who comprise the bulk of the neighborhood's problems, and the typically better-off folks who are buying and renovating properties.

The reason I focused on those is because they are the two groups behind most of the conflicting upward and downward economic forces going on in the neighborhood. The root of Springfield's issues is really the interplay between those two sets of folks. I'm certainly not saying they are the ONLY two groups, but they are unquestionably the two groups in focus when you discuss these types of issues.

Also, what's with your nasty comment? I may have lacked the personal skill set to operate in that environment, but I certainly don't lack compassion. I really think you must have misinterpreted something.

[ChriswUfGator]

It's not just the low income residents that act like morons and show no respect....there's plenty of those with a college education, higher paying positions, flown and own new cars...that don't give a damn.

True, but those are just plain azzholes, and there is no one to blame but them for that kind of behavior.

But blighted neighborhoods like Springfield are a whole different story. Most of the problem folks there truly do face legitimate and crushing economic disadvantages, that continue out of the area's prior generations of poverty. It becomes a cycle that is larger than simple questions of personal responsibility, and it's a lot more complicated than your example of plain old-fashioned bad behavior. It's it's also a lot harder to fix.

And in any event, I'll keep my eyes open next time I'm down there for all the low-income Springfield residents sporting degrees, planes, and new cars. Honestly, we're talking about true endemic poverty here. It's not like some spoiled kids from epping forest hop in Dad's car and say "Let's go down to Springfield and throw crack baggies and malt liquor bottles all over the place, spray paint gang signs everywhere, walk up and down the street like prostitutes, etc. etc.". Springfield is the real deal, it's not just a question of bad behavior.

[downtownparks]

"Let's go down to Springfield and throw crack baggies and malt liquor bottles all over the place, spray paint gang signs everywhere, walk up and down the street like prostitutes, etc. etc.".

I get your gist, and even agree somewhat, but still say you are greatly over stating the issues.

[strider]

One might be surprised at the level of education some of theses "lower income" residents have, the backgrounds and families they come from, the pasts that haunt them.  Some are indeed from generations of families that never had anything, others are actually better off than their parents (a sad thing, really..) and others once had what some believe to be better lives.  Some aspire to be more, others seem to try their best to become less.  Pretty much the same as I have seen in the "upper income" levels as well.  Some were once indeed part of those "upper income levels."  One thing for sure, there is no easy answer. 

AlexS: I am willing to support businesses and people I don't normally support.
I just don't see how that stops people from throwing their trash (lottery tickets, styrofoam containers, chicken bones, malt liqour bottles, cigarette wrappers, etc) wherever they like rather than in trash bins. What would stop people from doing that ? Or is our only choice to hope that these people get replaced by some with better habits or constantly clean up after them ? Why do (many) low income people (the majority segment in Springfield) have no problem with this or help cleaning up ?

It won't help much at first.  Too much distrust and too much "blame" on both sides of the equation.  What percent of the home owners are slobs and do not take care of their own property?  Would you expect a different ratio among the renters?  If you have a neighbor who doesn't mow his grass often enough, how do you handle it?  Is it a fact that if one person puts in a better yard, others will follow?  If one renter tries harder and has the support of the community - in other words, making them feel welcome - then other renters will do better too?  This is nothing new and certainly has been done in some parts of Springfield.  Not so much in other areas of Springfield, however.  You can pretty much tell where it is done and where it isn't.

Most people have computers or at least access to them.  They read the same things you do regardless of the income level.  They predominately want the same things.  As far as trash, it took a generation to get this way, so how long to reverse the effect and get the people to care about where they throw their trash?  And it is not just the poor, but I have seen well dressed women in a SUV throw out the remains of a Happy Meal as often as that malt liquor can comes out of a rusty Ford.

You, AlexS, live where the cops think it's OK to have hookers because "they have always been there".  How long before you can get the cops to change their perceptions and habits?  And how severe is the problem with the younger generations of these lower income groups when the school system creates a magnet school for improving social behavior?  When for generations, the "well off" moved away and left the inner cities behind and showed little or no concern for the residents left there, now that "they" - the well off - seem to want it back, how long to show those older, original residents that you do care? And how long before they believe it?

Do we, the newer residents who have spent untold thousands on our homes have the right to expect more out of the older, poorer residents?  No, not really.  But, yes, we do.  Like I said, a complex problem.

Only by trying to understand the how and why of things can we begin to see what must be done.  I have read on other threads and other forums how some have gone out of their way to interact with the "others“, whether the poor approach the well off, or the other way around, it makes no difference.  At the end of the day, we are all just people.   Some will earn our respect and friendship, others will not.  Some are deserving of extra consideration, others deserve none at all.  Nothing really new here, is there? 

[uptowngirl]

"Blighted neighborhoods like Springfield"?

My neighborhood is not blighted, it may not be as "pristine" as Avondale, but hey not everyone wants to live in whitewash land.

Blighted? I just posted some of the most fantastic Christmas light pictures taken all over Springfield, from 11th-1st and from Perry to Ionia, most "blighted" "crack" neighborhoods don't have this.

When people talk about Springfield as if it is still stuck in 1988 and is known as “Crack Alley”, I know they most likely live in the burbs (or Avondale/San Marco which might as well be the burbs it's so vanilla), probably do not come to Springfield for anything (and if they do, just drive through), and certainly do not interact with anyone here.

Just recently we had caroling, Santa on the fire truck, thanksgiving football/breakfast at the park and wandering cocktail tour, we will have a wandering New years Eve Cocktail tour (oh my gosh people strolling the hood at night!)

Yeah, we still have some issues, but hey- hasn't San Marco, Avondale, and Riverside all had a rash of robberies (some armed too!) lately? Blighted huh? Please don't tell my parents that as they just bought a house here too, on Ionia no less....it might shock them!

If we could just get Flagship and some of the other awful landlords around here to clean up their act we could cut back on the majority of issues, but blighted crack alley does not describe our issues or our neighborhood any longer.. Step back from the 80’s and check us out.

[uptowngirl]

Oh and that reminds me of another Springfield story, I used to own an apartment building at 41 E. 16th Street, and it had this big glass door and windows on the front of it, like a glass vestibule area where the stairs came down. The new owners replaced the glass with plywood, because people were always breaking it, but anyway, when I owned it I came by to collect a tenant's rent and there were bullet-holes all in the glass, and when I opened the door there was blood EVERYWHERE. The newell post was covered in blood, the floor, the walls were smeared. It was so nasty, and somebody got friggin' SHOT inside there.



Not even Springfield....explains a LOT!

[ChriswUfGator]

Not even Springfield....explains a LOT!

It's Springfield. May not be the 'historic' district, but the place was still part of the original Springfield/New-Springfield plat. And if you're nit-picking, then I'd love to hear your take on the Chop-Shop they had in the garage at 1531 Hubbard, which was definitely Springfield, and ditto with the issues at 1719 Perry, which Springfield and Historic District.

The place has improved, but it's still rough.

[jbm32206]

It's the effort to make Historic Springfield worse than others. This is our area of concern and it's the crap that happens outside of our boundaries that others try to dump onto us. Yes, things happen, but they happen everywhere.