Working Group: Transit Issues and SPAR

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, I just can't understand why JTA and COJ hasn't embraced our loving help...

Some residents feel Boulevard is too residential oriented.  Ock, what's your position on JTA's current North Corridor plan?

I am blown away by the sudden epiphany that seems to have run through JTA'S BRT planners. I think they are finally on-target to go in the right direction. I would like to see another branch of this running from Boulevard out Moncrief into New Kings as it would touch more impoverished and transit dependent people. But that's an easy next step once this is up and running.

Also, if JTA wants to do this, why can't they just start running express buses down this corridor before sinking millions into signal upgrades?

We should do just this Lake. I spoke to Michael Blaylock about this at some length. Riders MUST be trained and taught the benefits of a new type of service. You wouldn't build High Speed Rail in the Okefenokee for the same reason's = RIDERSHIP. The system needs to start looking and operating like BRT, YESTERDAY. I'm always amazed when the wizards at FDOT talk about HIGH SPEED RAIL and all the people that will flock to it - "If you build it they will come." But to skip the part where people learn to ride by building corridors, and commuter lines first - THEN HSR, is a plan for disaster. Likewise the BRT. We should be closing headways (frequencys) to 8-10 minutes = more riders = go to signal priority = more speed = more riders = go to HOV lanes = more riders + more speed = go to first class stations... etc. A good icebreaker rides up on one section of ice at a time and breaks it off, if we drive in too far - too fast - we'll be high and dry. Not to say we shouldn't have a COMPLETE MULTI-MODAL PLAN (including the damn Skyway) IN HAND NOW!

Yes, thanks Ocklawaha for the great information. A couple more questions.  Do other cities partner with companies like CSX to build street car lines?  It does seem like those companies have most of the expertise and with a waning economy, perhaps excess capacity for construction of rail lines, ETC.

Almost never, Railroads + Passengers as a private enterprise don't mix, even the mention of "why don't we XXX with passengers, " would be enough to get yourself a pink slip from any of our big three!

That said, they do help in community causes, for example the original ZOO train was done in 4 sets, SEABOARD, ATLANTIC COAST LINE, FLORIDA EAST COAST and SOUTHERN. Todays ZOO railroad enjoys a generous grant from CSX and the track experts at SAPP AND SONS (a Jacksonville based national rail contractor). So they do have a heart, just don't mix business with "community involvment".


Independence Drive under the new Main Street Bridge Approaches?

Would it make sense to build at least part of the "loop" you describe now as part of the "BRT" system with a thought of adding to it later? It just seems like money; in this case, better revenue streams for JTA, would talk louder than anything else.

No, the fact is a single mile of FIRST CLASS railroad, is cheaper to build then a mile of highway. The railroad track (yes streetcars too) has the equal of three times the (PPHPD) passenger-per-hour-per-direction capacity. No money would be saved by building BRT to convert it to rail. That has been a World Wide PR campaign on the part of the BRT Lobby, sadly there is not a single case of this ever happening anywhere on earth! Once BRT - Always BRT.

Even with a higher initial capital cost, your quote: Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study), certainly is intriguing. It seems that if a large group of people come to a town to ride streetcars, then more in-town people would tend to use them as well.

This is correct, we are missing a huge tourist industry and a play, especially in Springfield - Riverside - 5 Points - Fairfield to our heritage as the largest TRACTION (Streetcar) RAILROAD in Florida. Also due to landscaped medians in Springfield and many other area's it was also know around the globe as "The Worlds Most Beautiful Trolley Line". As for cost, I can have two hertiage streetcars - DELIVERED to Jacksonville - completely rebuilt to meet ADA and every other modern standard for less then $500,000 each, lifespan - about 100 years.  Track? about $7 Million a mile in streets. The price of the true new hybrid BRT buses run about $600,000 - 900,000 dollars and have a life span of 12 years!


Going into Shands I would create a multi-modal rail/busway.

And as the current "BRT" propostal is slow, noisy buses, the street car system would give it the faster speed BRT seems to infer?  So, what am I missing, as it sure seems Streetcars are the way to go?

Yes, streetcars would be superior in dense areas. Again if I were JTA, I'd be looking at Commuter Rail, Streetcar and Skyway to the "S" line station behind Shands. THIS would become the "new Rosa Parks" for the northside BRT lines. The modes would all approach from different directions:

BRT - North and Northwest
RAIL - East - West on the current urban trail
STREETCAR - Pearl - 8Th - Main
SKYWAY- from the South and slightly west at Davis

Think of good transit as layers on layers, but each serving it's own market with plenty of connecting terminals. In this case it would shake out like this:

BRT -would be our medium speed - lighter load - trunk lines
RAIL- would be our sprinter - reaching out and touching distant commuters and burbs - our heavy hitter.
STREETCAR -would be our heavy urban vehicle - faster on private medians - able to mix it up with traffic - heavy loads
SKYWAY -would become the over-and-above 24 hour moving sidewalk between major downtown collection points and terminals.
AMTRAK - would be our regional surface connection with the most comfort and speed of all.

[FinnegansWake]

wow. awesome information. thanks...

you are like the Yoda of Transportation. 

Phil

[zoo]

Ock, great stuff. Add to it an integrated transportation AND parking payment system, and all of a sudden Jacksonville's transit system, economic development, downtown, and much of its populace could come completely out of the dark ages, and have something to brag to the rest of the world about!

I've suggested a transit/parking payment system like Parcxmart in the past. http://www.parcxmart.com/how_citysolutions.html

This is a card-payment system that is based on a revenue-sharing model, and can be integrated with all variations of transit, parking and commercial (civic AND private), because the depositing of funds is set up electronically for each payment unit. Because it is a revenue-sharing model, the company will deploy, at no charge, the electronic payment units.

So, with a loaded payment card (loading can be done at transit stations, parking garages, participating retailers/tourism sites, or online), a Jacksonvillian could hop on a water taxi at Julington Creek, have dinner at Sake House on the Southbank, take the Skyway to the Northbank for Artwalk, then take the BRT to the airport for a late eve flight. OR, someone from St. Augustine could hop on commuter rail, switch to trolley at JTA transit center to meet friend in Springfield, trolley back downtown, meet another friend who swiped a card at a meter/garage near Bay St., then visit Starbucks (or, better, a LOCAL retailer) to re-load card and get a coffee. All with a card, no cash, and no lack of transit options or parking. All of the revenue generated would be separated and transferred electronically into the appropriate entity's accounts!

City could trim/re-apply parking meter collection resources.

I am hopeful that the cooperation, integration and creative-thinking, and politicking in the City's interests is avail in little ol' Jax to help the City, JTA, near-transit merchants, and our visitors' bureau all realize increased efficiency/rev/profit/regard.

[zoo]

Two more things about a system like Parcxmart: 1. It can be used for toll roads (I know we don't have any), 2. It is inter-operable from city to city. Here is link to a pdf brochure with outline...

http://www.parcxmart.com/documents/ParcxmartBrochure.pdf

[alta]

Having a farecard system is basic to having any kind of efficient transit system.  Having to pay for a bus fare then getting off and having to get a token for the skyway adds time and frustration to your trip.  All the other transit systems I have used you could use debit/credit to recharge your farecard.  Has JTA done any best practice studies on the best transit systems in the U.S. or overseas to understand what make their systems successful?  Choice riders as they are called are the riders that are going to make a difference in Jacksonville.  The people that are currently using transit will probably continue to if a well developed system is put in place.  They will benefit by a more efficient transit system that gets them where they are going faster.  The tough sell for people that have the choice of transit is to get them out of their car.  Similar sized cities of Austin and Salt Lake City have developed light rail at cost less than JTA is wanting to spend on BRT.  LYNX (Charlotte) was over budget when they started service last November but has already exceeded ridership projections for 2025.  
     

[uptowngirl]

Alta, what I think you are saying is you get more ridership with light rail. This I agree with.

I no longer commute, but when I did light rail was first choice, bus last. When I took the coast starlight I could try to schedule it so I could take the train ALL the way up or down the cost and not have to switch to a bus for part of the trip.

I wnet out yesterday and drove along some of the current bus routes, one thing I noticed is most of the houses on these routes were very dirty. Meaning they had a lot of accumulated dirt on whatever side of the house was facing the street, additional green or black mold on the house,fence, and or sidewalk, and the gardens were doing very poorly when compared to any of the other houses I looked at off route. These buses are filthy, the fumes and smell alone are disturbing, but the dirt and pollution they kick up and spew are detrimental. These buses should not being running in residential areas, especially historical ones.

Electric trolleys/buses would take care of these issues nicely. No NEW EXPANSION of BRT for Springfield. NOTHING good for Springfield will come out of this NOTHING. Turning Blvd into a mini bus highway will turn out just as bad as is did for Main st. You can just start kissing those houses on Blvd goodbye...

[fatcat]

if there is no chance to move the buses/trolleys/whatever new transit projects from Blvd to Jefferson, the least we could do is to zone the house along blvd to commercial. It is pretty bad to sleep in such noise, pollution and traffic as is. rezone it commercial at least will motivate (hopefully) some private investment into the houses alone blvd. Otherwise, they will die and shave a slice out of historical neighborhood.

[uptowngirl]

Maybe Shands needs more parking lots and offices....the city is just helping them out? I mean they KILLED Jefferson and half of Blvd this side of the tracks already so why not take the rest of Blvd. Perhaps Perry will be next...they already started on the NW side.