Working Group: Transit Issues and SPAR

[thelakelander]

On the other hand the faux trolley does complement the activity taking place in Five Point and the Beaches.  The key difference is these places were already vibrant.  We will not get the same effect with Main, which is probably why funding was rejected when stacked side to side with the other proposals. 

Springfield has a VERY vibrant residential fabric (maybe just as vibrant as these other areas' commercial districts ;-), just not much reason to bring it on to Main/8th at this time. This could change as early as April with the completion of the Cesery project and Uptown Market opening, provided there is some connectivity with other vibrant pods like the Pearl and Shanty/Zombie/Burro Bags areas.

Area residents have been asking for transit options into downtown, a mere mile away, for several years, as many work there and have professional commitments that don't jive with walking/biking (much of Jacksonville is just too stuffy to be ok with a professional person showing up for work in semi-casual biking gear - trust me, I've tried it).

In addition, Shands/UF complex has 5,000 employees who currently have to get in their cars to get to and from work, and to do basic convenience errands during work breaks. A trolley could get them directly to Carl's, Uptown Market, or into downtown to the Library or eateries.

What's the population of the perspective Springfield market for the trolley compared with the markets of the Riverside and Beaches services?  What are the hours desired for operation?

[zoo]

If you were talking real rail trolley, any line would also have to service downtown to be useful. If we're talking bus-trolley, those lines follow development, not spur development (example: Riverside and Beaches services).

Agreed. The route, as submitted by JTA, was supposed to go into downtown at least to Hemming Plaza, and possibly to the Landing (where it would conveniently have connected to the Riverside trolley).

In Springfield in the past 3 years, there has been more than $160M of development, if I just add the Proton Therapy Institute and SRG homes. Add in another $12M for Cesery's project. And there are additional dollars if you count a $2M Walgreen's (at least), renovation development activity, and probably more that I'm not recalling, or of which I'm not aware. I'm not saying this equals the development in Riverside or at Beaches, because I don't keep tabs on those areas, but I don't think $175M worth of development investment can be ignored.

What's the population of the perspective Springfield market for the trolley compared with the markets of the Riverside and Beaches services?  What are the hours desired for operation?

4,500 Springfield residents, 5,000 Shands/UF employees, 3,000 FCCJ students, faculty and staff, and 55,000 downtown office workers. Hours were not determined prior to submission of the grant, but JTA had information regarding peak movement, shift, attendance times for Shands/UF and FCCJ.

[thelakelander]

Agreed. The route, as submitted by JTA, was supposed to go into downtown at least to Hemming Plaza, and possibly to the Landing (where it would conveniently have connected to the Riverside trolley).

That's not a bad route.  So was it supposed to go along 8th, then south along Main and use 1st Street to cross over to Laura?

[downtownparks]

Im ok with that. An express bus with a stop at Shands, and stop at 8th and Main, and a stop at 1st and Main on its way to the Landing, or even Rosa Parks seems ok to me. Its more of what we already have, but at least it isnt putting 4 buses an our in front of the houses of those who live on Boulevard. A bus doing the speed limit seems like its flying, and as I wouldn't want it in front of my house, I have a hard time telling someone else it should be in front of theirs.

[thelakelander]

Looking at JTA's route, the Boulevard rapid bus segment in New Springfield and Brentwood is more residential than it is in Springfield.  Once it hits Norwood, it runs in commercial areas all the way to I-295.

[strider]

OK, Zoo:

Lol. Strider, I get a kick out of how, even when you agree with me, you hold fast to finding ways to disagree with me  . Until FDOT rejected JTA's operational grant recently, JTA's planned timing for implementing trolley on Main was less than 18 months out (Fall of 2009).

Umm, as you had already posted that the trolley was nixed, it does indeed it seems my comment was valid.  It, by the way, had nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with you.  I don't think about you all that much, but I'm so glad you got a "kick" out of it.

I also have to admitt that when I said "trolley" I was thinking what you are calling street car.  And yes, that's why I said (old fashioned looking and clean) buses as I think that is what you are calling "faux trolley".  My mistake on using the wrong term. So, when thinking about a rail "street car" - can someone comment on my "questions" I posted earlier?

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well? Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street? I don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard? The parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main? Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main? Wouldn't that benefit everybody? Wouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city? As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system? Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier? Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

[zoo]

An express bus with a stop at Shands, and stop at 8th and Main, and a stop at 1st and Main on its way to the Landing, or even Rosa Parks seems ok to me.

DTP, you've misunderstood. The route I was referring to was for trolley (dressed up bus), not express buses. I still believe those should go on Jefferson.

That's not a bad route.  So was it supposed to go along 8th, then south along Main and use 1st Street to cross over to Laura?

It wasn't determined where the trolley route would cut over to Laura, but I believe to make the headways, they were planning to do it more out-and-back style on Springfield part of Main St, DOWN Main through downtown, then possibly UP Laura back to 1st. This is only my memory of what was discussed, with finalization of any route occurring after the matching FDOT grant is approved.

[thelakelander]

Yes, there were trolleys on several streets in Springfield.  Ock has an old streetcar map somewhere on this site.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well? Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?

If you really wanted a streetcar in the neighborhood, it would be the easier option because you would then not have to deal with the federal government.

As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?  Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier? Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

It would cost more and duplicating lines would only serve on section of the community, instead of multiple neighborhoods.  So, if the plan would be to invest in two systems, its to the community's benefit to see this money put into two separate lines that complement each other and benefit more communities.  This was a major issue I had with JTA's original BRT lines.  If you want a certain type of system, its to your financial advantage to build it from scratch instead of paying for two systems.

As for funding.  A lack of funding is not an issue, its an excuse to stay the same.  The main issue is the priorities of our leadership.  For example, the city claims $100k is too much to convert the block of Main, between State & Union, into a two-way.  However, the same city thought a $700k investment in a park no one wanted, a few blocks down the street, was a drop in the bucket.  Change the leaders and resources already in our possession could be shifted to make rail based alternatives reality.

[nvrenuf]

Looking at JTA's route, the Boulevard rapid bus segment in New Springfield and Brentwood is more residential than it is in Springfield.  Once it hits Norwood, it runs in commercial areas all the way to I-295.

If I lived in New Springfield or Brentwood I'd be pissed about this prospect too. I wouldn't want a diesel bus slow or fast in front of my house every 10 minutes no matter where I lived.

[uptowngirl]

I do not want those smelly loud obnoxious busses by my house. I will ahve even more people walking down the street to cath a bus on Blvd that otherwise would never be on my street...which means I will ahve to watch out for missing items, and the occasional "disagreements" that occur between the average bus rider. Ughhh

[Ocklawaha]

I also have to admitt that when I said "trolley" I was thinking what you are calling street car.  And yes, that's why I said (old fashioned looking and clean) buses as I think that is what you are calling "faux trolley".  My mistake on using the wrong term. So, when thinking about a rail "street car" - can someone comment on my "questions" I posted earlier?

I'm your huckleberry for this one.

First let's clear up some terms so everyone is on the same page:



"TROLLEY" - Is a small metal wheel that rolls along an electric contact wire and delivers power via a pole to the vehicle.



Q. So are all classic Rail-Streetcar Trolleys?

A. NO. Streetcar yes, but trolleys no. Some use a folding pantograph with a wiper that runs along the wire, most modern system use these as do all of the high speed rail electric trains.



Q. Can a bus be a "Trolley"?

A. Certainly, there are many trolley buses. They use a twin pole system (it's hard to ground 600 volts DC through rubber tires). The poles are mounted on pivots allowing them to swing around stalled cars or parked delivery vehicles.



Q. Are the classic San Francisco cable cars trolleys?

A. NO. They are dragged along without a motor onboard by a moving cable buried in a slot in the center of the track.



Q. Does San Francisco have Trolleys?

A. Yes, STREETCARS - also Ferrys - Heavy Rail - Subway - Cable Cars - Buses - BRT - City Buses - Shuttles - Commuter Rail - Regional Rail.



Q. Does JTA have any Trolleys?

A. NO. The "Things" they call trolleys are just engine-frame sets of the same type used by Frito-Lay for their delivery trucks, thus the local (even at JTA) nickname PCT Trolleys, for POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS.



Q. Do the PCT Trolleys have ANY tourist appeal? Improve ridership? Show a demand for future real trolleys?

A. NO. Fact is they are poor fakes, even the name "Trolley" is a lie that comes from the builders of these abominations. They don't ride like real Trolleys, smell like real Trolleys, Look like real Trolleys or appeal to any more citizens then a clean electric shuttle bus would on the same frequent headways. To some of the unwashed masses it might sort-of-kind-of look like a trolley - sadly it DOES to JTA and City Hall. JTA, it's not revenge I'm after - it's a reckoning!

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well?

Yes, Springfield had Streetcars on Main to 33Rd to Norwood-Golfair
a loop Main - 4TH - Pearl - 11TH - Main
a loop Main - 1ST - Walnut - 8TH Main
All of East 8TH Street to Talleyrand
a loop Main to 8TH to Market to 20TH? to Main.
Some maps show a line up Hogan to Hogans Creek then a jog to match the Pearl line - it's not known if the jog was ever built. Both lines might have ended at different sides of the Park.

Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?

Since real Trolleys are larger then buses, it's better to stay with the main and commercial roadways.

I don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard?

This would be a great way to end a modern or heritage system, up Main and Pearl to 8TH and hence to Boulevard to the Multi-Modal Commuter Rail/BRT station behind Shands.

The parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main?
Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main?

Nationwide, buses account for only 7% of all TOD's and most of those are "socialized" such as SSI offices, DMV etc. Private money follows the rails.

Wouldn't that benefit everybody?

Any transit improvements beat the hell out of what we now have.

Wouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city?

Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study)

As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?

This is a common misconception - "cute - little - slow - old style trolleys". In fact they have superior speed  (nearly double) and acceleration (in Portland you can feel the G-Forces) to buses. They are larger then buses on average also... now as for cute - well that's in the eyes of the beholder.

Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier?

No. Buses no matter how much lipstick one puts on them will do nothing to prove the ridership potential of rail. Buses do local best, BRT extended local, streetcars heavy duty urban, Commuter Rail sprints for distance - they each have a place.

Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

Certainly adding Rail to the mix will boost the bus system. A streetcar line would feed the Commuter Rail and the buses would feed both. Mix sells in transit just as it does in Wal-Mart.

So what is OCKLAWAHA'S vision, if I were in Blaylocks shoes?



Bus routes between 8TH - I-95 - University Blvd (roughly a circle) would be converted to trolley bus. Ditto for BRT.




PCT buses would be replaced with pedestrian friendly, low-floor modern electric shuttle buses.





BRT would be expanded on HOV-toll lanes to Jax Beach via Arlington
Also via JTB
Blanding
Moncrief
Kings
Normandy
Hecksher-Bush
Merril-Wonderwood
Edgewood
With a study of dedicated busway along the Emerson Street Connector - extended from Phillip's to Arlington Expressway




As I took JTA regional, All those displaced and newer diesel buses would find plenty of work in out laying burbs that never dreamed they would ever see bus service... Green Cove? Starke? Callahan? Jacksonville Beach? Ponte Vedra? St. Augustine? and the far corners of Duval would become enabled to be CAR-FREE.





Streetcars would reign on Water-Independence-Newnan-Orange-Main-8Th-Boulevard
also looping Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Lee-Water
also looping 8Th - Pearl - Duval
Extending: Lee at Water, down Park to King to St. Vincents.
Also a streetcar line east of Iona, on the old F&J Railroad right-of-way from Beaver North to 21St where it would cross the
Commuter Rail line at grade and proceed to Gateway Mall on the ACL portion of the old "S" line.





LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT or LRT would go into immediate study for the Beaches areas.





Commuter Rail would be extended to
St. Augustine,
Fernandina Beach,
Green Cove Springs,
Macclenny





Regional Amtrak would be operated:
Jacksonville-Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta
Jacksonville-Tallahassee-Pensacola (day train) in addition to any New Orleans train on the route.
Jacksonville-Gainesville
Jacksonville-Savannah LOCALS
Jacksonville-Montgomery via Waycross
Jacksonville-Tallahassee LOCALS
Jacksonville-Ocala-Tampa (day and overnight)
Jacksonville-Daytona Beach-Melbourne-Miami (day and overnight)
in addition to the current trains.





SKYWAY- would go to the following end points - with new train cars:
Farmers Market
Stadium
Blue Cross/Annie Lytle (5-Points area)
Atlantic (west of the FEC tracks) in San Marco
Current San Marco Station to Atnea and Baptist Hospital
with a serious study for a new Courthouse-Shands link perhaps via Davis





Water Taxi wouldn't go high speed, but would extend to more locations as a pseudo-pleasure-taxi-transport system. Themed as the old Jacksonville river boats.



"Make no mistake, y'all down at JTA might be just fine for a starter system for an INDEPENDENT rapid transit agency, but then again, y'all might be the Antichrist!"

[sheclown]

Thank you so much for this information.

[thelakelander]

Some residents feel Boulevard is too residential oriented.  Ock, what's your position on JTA's current North Corridor plan?

Also, if JTA wants to do this, why can't they just start running express buses down this corridor before sinking millions into signal upgrades?

[strider]

As to Boulevard, if the system was streetcars, then wouldn't the noise and pollution issue would be reduced to less than that street sees now?  With the parks on one side and the houses, which I think is the biggest draw and asset for Springfield’s commercial future, it becomes a very pleasant ride for those weekenders we hope come to enjoy the parks, see the houses and then spend their money at the commercial district.

Yes, thanks Ocklawaha for the great information. A couple more questions.  Do other cities partner with companies like CSX to build street car lines?  It does seem like those companies have most of the expertise and with a waning economy, perhaps excess capacity for construction of rail lines, ETC. Would it make sense to build at least part of the "loop" you describe now as part of the "BRT" system with a thought of adding to it later? It just seems like money; in this case, better revenue streams for JTA, would talk louder than anything else.  Even with a higher initial capital cost, your quote: Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study), certainly is intriguing. It seems that if a large group of people come to a town to ride streetcars, then more in-town people would tend to use them as well. And as the current "BRT" proposal is slow, noisy buses, the street car system would give it the faster speed BRT seems to infer?  So, what am I missing, as it sure seems Streetcars are the way to go?

[thelakelander]

One thing to remember is that the bus proposal is not designed specifically for Springfield.  Its JTA's attempt to create a reliable bus corridor with quick service that links major employers, service and retail destinations through the Northside, the most transit dependent section of the city.  This needs to happen regardless of if the city moves forward with additional forms of mass transit.  I say this, because without reliable bus service complementing streetcars, commuter rail, light rail or whatever, they'll struggle as well.

I'd also maintain that its a bad idea to push both bus and streetcar service to run down the same corridor.  Especially, when we are already cash strapped.  We should plan our multiple modes to complement each other by serving specific areas where the other does not.  This will increase ridership for all modes instead of having them tear each other apart by competing for the same riders.