Fleet Landing Riverside seeks DDRB conceptual approval

[jcjohnpaint]

No, you need to find 'The Ark'. The only master-rendering meant to be!

[Charles Hunter]

They say there are no dumb (with a "b") questions, so here goes:
When a condo project gets a 50% REV grant for 10 years - does that apply to just the 'common' property, or does each purchaser of a condo in the tower has half of their property tax valuation waived? In other words, if I buy a condo for $1 million in a REV-grant tower, do I pay taxes on the million (less homestead exemption), or on one-half million (less HE)?

Easy answer, Charles!
1. You pay your full property taxes (less homestead exemption) to the city
2. The city refunds 75% of those property taxes to the developer, for 20 years

One interesting point is though Fleet Landing is open to all retirees, it's like a retired military facility. And not sure if you know this or not, but retired vets with 100% disability do not pay property taxes.

I did not know disabled vets got 100% exemption (not that I object to it). Seems that would reduce, or spread out, the REV refunds from the City to Fleet Landing, if a meaningful share of the FL residents are 100% disabled veterans.

[Ned Plimpton]

I see a trend here and know why it's happening. And, it's good news.

Fleet Landing, Seaport at St. Johns, Rivers Edge, Hard Rock, Shipyards [and I forgot, Related Group's building too!] are all on the verge of becoming real if they aren't already.

I've got a rendering of Sea Glass Tower that you're going to love... coming soon!

https://news.wjct.org/community/2013-12-13/project-to-build-floridas-tallest-structure-proposed-for-downtown-jacksonville

Mooneyhan studios groundbreaking scheduled for 2028!

[fsu813]

I see a trend here and know why it's happening. And, it's good news.

Fleet Landing, Seaport at St. Johns, Rivers Edge, Hard Rock, Shipyards [and I forgot, Related Group's building too!] are all on the verge of becoming real if they aren't already.

I've got a rendering of Sea Glass Tower that you're going to love... coming soon!

https://news.wjct.org/community/2013-12-13/project-to-build-floridas-tallest-structure-proposed-for-downtown-jacksonville

Mooneyhan studios groundbreaking scheduled for 2028!

But seriously, of those 6 projects mentioned, if we see 50% actually done in the next few years, I'd be thrilled.

[Ken_FSU]

$50 million in tax rebates approved unanimously by the DIA.

What bugs me is that, unlike peer cities, we require either no proof, or the most cursory of proof, that a financial need for the incentives exist. Other Southeast cities (Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville) put 8-10 year limits on their REV-style grants, require some form of gap analysis to prove the need, cap annual rev grants and make developers compete for them, or reserve them for transformational mixed used projects.

The DIA seems to just give a blanket green stamp to the maximum allowable rev grant (20 years at 75%), regardless of circumstance.

In this case, against their own regulations/critera.

https://dia.jacksonville.gov/doing-business-with-us/doing-business-with-dia/residential-incentives/multi-family-housing-rev-grant

Allowable REV grant shall not exceed 50% for riverfront (adjacent to the Riverwalk or bulkhead with unobstructed river view) properties located between Riverside Avenue and the St. Johns River in Brooklyn.

This figure can only be increased if:

- A 2,500 sf rooftop restaurant on the Riverwalk is included (+10%)
- At least 8 public transient boat slips are provided (+10%)
- Retail frontage beyond the minimum 50% required to qualify for a REV grant is provided (+5%).

At a MAXIMUM, this project should only qualify for a 50% REV grant, as it meets zero of the stated criteria for additional rebates in this "Limited Grant Area."

Meanwhile, per the JBJ article tonight:

Fleet Landing has received more than 100 inquiries from families interested in Riverside before beginning any marketing, Ashby said. Its Atlantic Beach community is effectively fully occupied, with 766 families on a waiting list. Nocatee, scheduled to open in July 2027, is fully presold and has another 64 families waiting, he said.

Riverside's entrance fees are expected to carry an approximately 20% premium to Nocatee, Ashby said.

I'm all for progress, and strongly support max grants and completion grants for transformational projects with public benefits (Gateway's Publix, Lot J, the Riverfront Plaza mixed use tower), but this feels like one the developer and their wealthy client should foot the bill for, not the public. And it also feels like one where the REV grant is more likely going more to profit than need.

[vicupstate]

JAX is a lot more desperate that Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville. That said, I agree the level of incentives is probably not required in whole or part to make the numbers work. 

[jaxlongtimer]

JAX is a lot more desperate that Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville. That said, I agree the level of incentives is probably not required in whole or part to make the numbers work. 

Desperation breeds desperation.  Not having a realistic, thoughtful and disciplined Downtown masterplan followed by appropriate execution leads to ping pong development.  Such development results in a string of ones, not force multipliers that would eliminate the need to be desperate.

Regardless of party or administration, I just cannot understand our City's failure to implement a masterplan that ties together planning, zoning, design standards, street facings, streetscapes, wayfaring, mass transit, security, cleanliness, green spaces, other amenities, etc.  I just don't see how this is so hard to do, it is not rocket science.  Thousands of small towns to big cities around the world do this everyday.  Total frustration!

[thelakelander]

^What do you think would be the largest con that organization and clarity would place on the longtime way of doing things? When you throw logic out the door and view various issues from that perspective, things become crystal clear.

[Ken_FSU]

JAX is a lot more desperate that Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville.

While I agree holistically, I have a hard time believing that a prime riverfront property, in Jacksonville's hottest urban neighborhood, anchored by a Whole Foods and YMCA, requires more subsidy than a surface parking lot in Charlotte or Orlando.

[thelakelander]

Precedent has long been set. Until the city says no, hands will always come out.

[fsu813]

JAX is a lot more desperate that Orlando, Charlotte, Nashville.

While I agree holistically, I have a hard time believing that a prime riverfront property, in Jacksonville's hottest urban neighborhood, anchored by a Whole Foods and YMCA, requires more subsidy than a surface parking lot in Charlotte or Orlando.

Depends on what you want to build!

When and where is the last private sector tower built in Jax without a notable incentive?

[Ken_FSU]

When and where is the last private sector tower built in Jax without a notable incentive?

This question gets to my larger point about proving need.

If we've spent decades subsidizing virtually every major Downtown development, the absence of unsubsidized towers doesn't necessarily prove those subsidies were needed. It just proves we've made them standard practice.

Were most of them needed to pencil? Probably. Are we using any kind of sophisticated assessment to determine if they are? Based on the fact that everyone seems to get a blanket 20-year, 75% tax rebate - even Baptist's random Southbank hotel - probably not.

$50 million is a LOT of money for this city. The city could offer world-class programming at Riverfront Plaza for 20 years with that incremental property tax from Fleet Landing that we're willing to just totally surrender. This isn't market rate housing or transformational mixed use. It's a self-contained luxury retirement community with a waiting list for YEARS. The public-facing amenities are the absolute bare minimum required by the DIA to qualify for a REV grant.

Would love to see us either:
1. Put our foot down and say no to the 75% REV grant that isn't even allowed in Brooklyn
2. OR, put our foot down and require world-class public amenities along the riverfront to justify the public investment

[fsu813]

I agree, fwiw.

[thelakelander]

Depends on what you want to build!

When and where is the last private sector tower built in Jax without a notable incentive?

Probably the 1990s? All those corporate companies are largely gone now.

Since, then....maybe Everbank/TIAA on Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn, a decade or two ago, or the Baptist medical and cancer center buildings on the Southbank?

[jaxlongtimer]

Depends on what you want to build!

When and where is the last private sector tower built in Jax without a notable incentive?

Probably the 1990s? All those corporate companies are largely gone now.

Since, then....maybe Everbank/TIAA on Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn, a decade or two ago, or the Baptist medical and cancer center buildings on the Southbank?

Possibly the suburbs  ?  Allstate Tower, Mayo Hospital and Hilton Hotel buildings?  How many stories before you consider it a "tower"?