JTA meetings on the future of the Skyway

[thelakelander]

thelakelander
I'm still confused where this streetcar option comes from, with a cost estimate when there's been no real evaluation of a route that makes sense or is meeting some type of demand to justify its consideration.

From what I recall of the JTA's presentation to the TPO CAC, they replicated the Skyway route with the Streetcar. But, since no map was provided, who knows? Does it cross the river, and if so, how? Replace the Skyway infrastructure with streetcar rails? All a big mystery.

And, yes, I know it is folly to use JTA's numbers, but, it's all we have.

IMO, we have nothing. A streetcar replicating the Skyway's route is even more foolish. Everyone knows the Skyway needs expansion to actual destinations.

If starting over, which a streetcar would certainly be, its not financially feasible to build a new river crossing for such a short line and it be better for the initial route to tie into actual destinations like the sports district as opposed to parking lots and garages.

Wrapping fish would be a better use for JTA's cost estimates document.

[Jax_Developer]

I think every single person in JTA leadership needs to be fired at this point. Full Board sweep. These numbers are laughable and dishonest. $428M - which includes virtually zero new track.

The new FSCJ program is also laughable & further adds to the obvious corruption. When are locals going to wake up & realize Jacksonville is not some AV capital. Donna needs to realize this is gonna tank her election.

[Des]

Wasn't JTA adding a Brooklyn station for like $2m pre-COVID?

[thelakelander]

Yes, it was something cheap like that. Now its hundreds of millions. Its really hard to take them seriously at this point.

[marcuscnelson]

Today's Daily Record includes O&M costs for some of the alternatives:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/sep/01/jta-skyway-reuse-costs-are-15195-million-to-56544-million/

• Rehabilitate the existing Skyway to add 10-12 years of life: $276 million
• Place new APM trains on the Skyway structure & extend to Brooklyn: $428 million
• Convert the Skyway to accommodate NAVI & add ramps: $294.23 million + $11.05 million per year
• Demolish the Skyway & operate NAVI in mixed traffic: $151.95 million + $9.03 million per year
• Turn the Skyway into an elevated trail & operate NAVI in mixed traffic: $260.10 million + $13.52 million per year
• Build a modern streetcar at street level: $565.44 million + $15.74 million per year
• Do (essentially) nothing: $15.15 million + $11.85 million per year

These estimates presumably don't also include the cost of operating NAVI's current segment, and the Record did not provide the O&M costs of the alternatives that modernize an APM.

I do find it interesting this reveals that the cost of maintaining an elevated trail is about $4.49 million per year. That's a pretty substantial portion of what it costs to run trains up there while competing with the Emerald Trail, taking pedestrians off the street, and forcing all transit to compete with automobile traffic at FDOT's whim.

[thelakelander]

What is the do nothing alternative? What happens when the Skyway breaks from doing nothing? Are we then still on the hook to pay the feds back? If so, its way more than $15 million.

[marcuscnelson]

^ JTA has not updated their website with these revised alternatives and cost estimates yet, and whatever presentation they provided to board members isn't available either.

The original website for the earlier public meetings says the following:

The No Build keeps the Skyway system operating as it does today with the last two remaining vehicles. The existing track, vehicles, and automated train control system would remain in use as long as feasible. Required track repairs would be made to maintain basic service as for as long as possible.

CONSIDERATIONS

• Fewest Potential Construction Impacts
• Track and Vehicles Nearing End of Life
• Federal Funding Requirement
• Ongoing Repairs Still Needed

[Ken_FSU]

Wasn't JTA adding a Brooklyn station for like $2m pre-COVID?

Try lowering than number by 60%, and you've got the truth.

A shockingly low $800,000.



All in, $1.2 million when you include some very minor tweaks to the tracks.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/02/24/jta-to-add-skyway-station-in-brooklyn-this-year/

Shock of all shocks, JTA botched the permit in JTA ways (missing signatures, failure to get sign-off from the DIA), they never bothered to follow up or fix it, and the permits all expired last year.

$800k to extend the Skyway into Brooklyn, compared to $50 MILLION dollars just to build a control center for the clown cars.

• Rehabilitate the existing Skyway to add 10-12 years of life: $276 million
• Place new APM trains on the Skyway structure & extend to Brooklyn: $428 million
• Convert the Skyway to accommodate NAVI & add ramps: $294.23 million + $11.05 million per year
• Demolish the Skyway & operate NAVI in mixed traffic: $151.95 million + $9.03 million per year
• Turn the Skyway into an elevated trail & operate NAVI in mixed traffic: $260.10 million + $13.52 million per year
• Build a modern streetcar at street level: $565.44 million + $15.74 million per year
• Do (essentially) nothing: $15.15 million + $11.85 million per year

This is all so disingenuous, and so clearly designed to try to shift narrative in a certain direction.

If I'm the mayor, I'm taking a stand against NAVI sooner than later. She's doing such a fantastic job, but the dollars are so huge here, and affect every taxpayer in Jacksonville, that she's leaving herself exposed if a political opponent wants to push this issue hard in the next election.

[jaxlongtimer]

All the JTA numbers are just silly.

How can doing nothing cost almost as much as the other options for using the track, one way or the other??!!!

Do (essentially) nothing: $15.15 million + $11.85 million per year

$11.85 million to blow off the track every few weeks with a leaf blower?  What else?  I assume the $15.15 million would be to fence/secure the structure and platforms so security should be minimal unless there is over-the-top vandalism.  No doubt our robust JSO patrols of Downtown would keep that at a minimum - NOT!

Are we then still on the hook to pay the feds back? If so, its way more than $15 million.

I have said it before.  I think this issue is a red herring by JTA. After almost 4 decades of failure for an EXPERIMENTAL/DEMONSTRATION project, I can't see how the Feds would be upset with abandoning the Skyway which served its "purpose" to prove this is not a feasible way to do mass transit.  No one at the Feds today was around when the original project was funded so I doubt any egos would be hurt either.

I still haven't seen an exact calculation of the alleged penalty and how that compares to the annual losses of running the Skyway to the very end of 50 years.  It can't be much after all these decades if it was even enforced.  Politically, I think we also could get it waived if we tried.  Heck, the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial, that failed, cost a lot more than this penalty would.  We won't even talk about the White House ballroom, the Kennedy Center, or the Golden Arch.  The Feds won't miss the money.

I would add that only one option, rehabbing the existing Skyway even meets the "spirit" of the original project.  All the others are substantially divergent from that if that is what would get the ire of the Feds.

[Ocklawaha]

The biggest problem with the SKYWAY is the fact that it is a "People Mover, Mass Transit, Rapid Transit, Monorail, etc..." All of the above and none of the above. Ask half the citizens what to do with it and you get responses like EXPANSION TO ST. AUGUSTINE and the AIRPORT... Few have a clue and even fewer recall that it was to be the downtown distributer for a regional rail system.

Enter JTA. Wrong technology, half built, unfinished, unconnected and everyones favorite; "It doesn't make money."

The mission should now be how to rescue a good start on an urban monorail system and tie it to a new, meaningful regional transit network.

Self driving hippie vans or golf carts ain't it. 

[jcjohnpaint]

In 10 years, each Skyway station is going to be totally different. UF campus/ possible Amtrak, Gateway Jax,and Rivers Edge. God only knows how the UF campus will look. Fix up the trains, add a car and make a cheap extension to Brooklyn. This is the cheapest option and they know it. The conversation has changed drastically since I moved here and you can read it in the comments from posters on any news outlet in the region. People now want good transit options, rail to St. Augustine and JIA. They might not know the specifics on how these trains work, but the desire is here. In 2010, all anybody talked about is tearing down the skyway.

[jaxlongtimer]

JTA still tying autonomous vehicles to the cost of abandoning the Skyway.  Makes no sense. Running AV's on streets is a separate decision from abandoning the Skyway without sticking to AV's.

But, then there is a little surprise thrown in below, highlighted in red.  JTA and streetcars in the same sentence?  Wow!

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The Jacksonville Transportation Authority held another round of public meetings Thursday to discuss the Skyway Conversion project.

We reported last month how JTA's projected cost overruns this year reached over $32.8 million.

Approximately $247 million in dedicated Local Option Gas Tax funding is currently allocated to the program. However some of the proposed options for the Skyway cost more than that.

JTA is currently considering six build options and a non-build option for the proposed Skyway Conversion project.

During the meeting, JTA introduced its newest build option based on public feedback - the Modern Street car.

Of the other five options, JTA says the most popular choice among those surveyed is turning the Skyway into a multipurpose trail and having street level autonomous vehicles.

However, JTA projects that option to cost over $260 million to build.

The least expensive option is removing the Skyway and putting those vehicles on the streets.

But that's also the least popular option right now.

"When you consider the initial capital costs, operating costs, refurbishment and replacement costs of the vehicles, as we've gone through the analysis, that's what the analysis has returned is that that one over the span of 30 years would be the cheapest," said Bill Frazer, Vice President and Chief Innovation Officer for JTA.

We asked JTA if they can afford any of the proposed Skyway options with its financial problems, and if they plan on reallocating the $247 million dollars for the Skyway Project to something else.

You can read the full statement from JTA here:

"The JTA is evaluating the financial feasibility of each Skyway alternative as part of the ongoing PD&E Study. No alternative has been selected or approved for implementation.

"Approximately $247 million in dedicated Local Option Gas Tax (LOGT) funding is currently allocated to the program. Completion of the PD&E process also positions the JTA to pursue potential federal funding.

Cost, available funding, public input and long-term financial sustainability will all be key factors in determining the path forward."

JTA is still seeking the public's input on the future of the Skyway. They plan to present a summary of the public's feedback and their recommendations during the October 29 board meeting.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jta-hold-public-meeting-skyways-future-while-budget-issues-linger/TX77XUEFZBC43FXDMZL7AMBQSE/

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — A people mover train, trail or even a cable car - there are a handful of options being considered for the future of the Skyway.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is seeking input from the community at a series of public meetings, which started Thursday.

"I'm very concerned about this public transportation issue that we've been talking about for what seems like years now," said Mark Musselwhite while looking at posters at the first public input meeting. "How much is it going to cost? What's it going to take? Where's it going to go?"


Musselwhite says his girlfriend lives and works in downtown Jacksonville, so she rides the Skyway daily.

"She is the only person I know who gets a use out of the Skyway on a regular basis," said Musselwhite.

Having a regular Skyway rider in his life has Musselwhite thinking about what direction he'd like to see the public transportation option go in.

He came to a public input session Thursday for the future of the Skyway to look at seven different options.

"They sure are pretty and pretty expensive," said Musselwhite.

The options range from running the Skyway in its current form for as long as feasible, to replacing the vehicles with people mover trains to even scrapping the Skyway altogether to have the NAVI shuttles take over the route on the street level.

"That could go to where more people are," said Musselwhite. "It could change routes at a moment's notice if they add a 5,000 unit apartment complex, so I kind of like that."

JTA officials say they received 12,000 comments during the last public input session, which resulted in another Skyway alternative - cable cars.

"That was one of the the themes we saw," said JTA Chief Innovation Officer Bill Frazer. "They want to see something that's been done elsewhere."

The cable car option is projected to cost more than half a billion dollars, while options like converting the Skyway into a trail or building ramps for the autonomous shuttles to go up and down come in a little cheaper - just south of $300 million.

"Those comments were basically focused around, 'Do something. Do something big,'" said Frazer. "The community is looking forward to seeing something new."

JTA has more public meetings coming up over the next two weeks then the board will take a look at the preferred option at a meeting in October.

A full list of meeting dates, Skyway alternatives and a survey to weigh in are available here.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/community/transportation/finalize-options-for-the-future-of-skyway-jacksonville/77-600d8383-46d5-4ffd-ac99-eda03421a6c7

[acme54321]

Cable cars?  As in San Francisco cable cars? Did they actually have that on the survey? 

If they did actually have that on there that is ridiculous, and if anyone answered yes to it they were certainly thinking a historic street car type of deal.

[Ken_FSU]

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — A people mover train, trail or even a cable car - there are a handful of options being considered for the future of the Skyway.

"That could go to where more people are," said Musselwhite. "It could change routes at a moment's notice if they add a 5,000 unit apartment complex, so I kind of like that."

Maybe the cable car could connect to the 5,000 unit apartment complex?

[Ned Plimpton]

"That was one of the the themes we saw," said JTA Chief Innovation Officer Bill Frazer. "They want to see something that's been done elsewhere."

I'd love to see something that's been done elsewhere.  I'd love a practical and efficient mass transit network for getting around the urban core and surrounding areas.  I don't want a never before seen minivan that I can easily outrun.