JTA meetings on the future of the Skyway

[thelakelander]

I hope they fixed the online survey. It was pretty screwy when I took it. It did not let me rank the alternatives in an order according to my priorities, even though thats what the question asked the participants to do. I will be waiting to see what the survey results say. I suspect the answers to that particular question will be flawed.

[MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain]

Out of curiosity, in addition to San Marco, can the King Street be extended to go down Phillips with a stop at the ice rink around Emerson and back over the Hart for a true circular loop? Is this feasible?

Sometimes it feels like "this" side of the old Jacksonville city limits gets overlooked - Spring Park and St Nicholas. Along Phillips is a slow process but getting redeveloped. I compare it to Mayport was and now.

In addition, all talks for creating a urban pathway Emerald Trail goes to other neighborhoods but none extended there - while there is much history and a mini shopping center that could thrive given the opportunity.

Last night someone lost their life on a bicycle - very tragic. Seems like not much focus is being put into improving that area for a more walkable pedestrian/bicycle friendly neighborhood that links up with other parts of the Emerald Trail is all I'm saying. Even driving on Arlington Rd, you see improvements.

[marcuscnelson]

^ In theory, with enough money you can do anything. In practice, that's about an 8-mile loop and the Skyway's mode choice (automated people mover) is probably too slow to make that ideal, on top of the cost of either making major modifications to the Hart Bridge, replacing it altogether, or adding a separate bridge to accommodate trains.

I think it makes sense to extend the Skyway about a mile to the south (to about River Oaks Rd), after which a different mode becomes preferable for longer-distance travel. That's already a pretty old idea to my understanding.

That area has been getting a lot of investment lately via the various I-95 widenings, I think the question is of the desire to shift that kind of investment into developing the trail and transit infrastructure. Hendricks Ave, Philips Highway, and along the FEC (perhaps under an added Skyway guideway a'la the Underline in Miami are all potential ideas, but they need the density to make up for them. The state has also gotten much more intransigent about lane reductions to accommodate things like protected bike lanes or dedicated transit lanes, and you're always going to have people who show up to public meetings claiming they're not needed. All challenges to be addressed.

Separately, I noticed in The Jaxson article this week the mention that:

Notably, an automated people mover manufacturer has expressed interest in refurbishing the full 10-car fleet and potentially adding a third car per train. This upgrade alone could increase capacity from 56 to 84 passengers per train, a roughly 50% gain.

Do we know who this is? Are they actually capable of this for a reasonable price?

[tufsu1]

I hope they fixed the online survey. It was pretty screwy when I took it. It did not let me rank the alternatives in an order according to my priorities, even though thats what the question asked the participants to do. I will be waiting to see what the survey results say. I suspect the answers to that particular question will be flawed.

It worked fine for me this week

[thelakelander]

^ In theory, with enough money you can do anything. In practice, that's about an 8-mile loop and the Skyway's mode choice (automated people mover) is probably too slow to make that ideal, on top of the cost of either making major modifications to the Hart Bridge, replacing it altogether, or adding a separate bridge to accommodate trains.

I think it makes sense to extend the Skyway about a mile to the south (to about River Oaks Rd), after which a different mode becomes preferable for longer-distance travel. That's already a pretty old idea to my understanding.

That area has been getting a lot of investment lately via the various I-95 widenings, I think the question is of the desire to shift that kind of investment into developing the trail and transit infrastructure. Hendricks Ave, Philips Highway, and along the FEC (perhaps under an added Skyway guideway a'la the Underline in Miami are all potential ideas, but they need the density to make up for them. The state has also gotten much more intransigent about lane reductions to accommodate things like protected bike lanes or dedicated transit lanes, and you're always going to have people who show up to public meetings claiming they're not needed. All challenges to be addressed.

Separately, I noticed in The Jaxson article this week the mention that:

Notably, an automated people mover manufacturer has expressed interest in refurbishing the full 10-car fleet and potentially adding a third car per train. This upgrade alone could increase capacity from 56 to 84 passengers per train, a roughly 50% gain.

Do we know who this is? Are they actually capable of this for a reasonable price?

Schwager Davis Inc. (SDI). Somewhere around $50 million, extending the system's life by another 10-15 years.

[marcuscnelson]

Interesting, so between overhauling the trains to have a full 10-train fleet again, replacing the train control system, repairing the guideway (given likely deferred maintenance), probably updating the O&M facility, and getting a station open in Brooklyn, how much might that be? I believe this initial PD&E is already $6 million or so, so that already leaves about $234 million (plus the $7 million fleet budget that is in theory for Holon shuttles).



Also, I see from the image above and previous efforts that there's been talk about extending the trains by one car before. However, the station platforms are at least 100 feet long, potentially closer to 120 feet. Is there any technical or engineering reason the trains could not be made longer still for added capacity, such as the below? Is that a maintenance facility issue?



If enough can be saved in how the overhaul is done, perhaps those funds can then shift towards things like operating on late nights and weekends, or looking to expand the system further (to Ford on Bay or Atlantic Blvd, perhaps). Or reviving the original Brooklyn Station plan:

[thelakelander]

Interesting, so between overhauling the trains to have a full 10-train fleet again, replacing the train control system, repairing the guideway (given likely deferred maintenance), probably updating the O&M facility, and getting a station open in Brooklyn, how much might that be? I believe this initial PD&E is already $6 million or so, so that already leaves about $234 million (plus the $7 million fleet budget that is in theory for Holon shuttles).

My understanding is that number would cover everything. Be on the safe side and round it off to $100 million. Its a no brainer, if COJ/JTA are willing to accept that keeping it a peoplemover is the best solution.

If enough can be saved in how the overhaul is done, perhaps those funds can then shift towards things like operating on late nights and weekends, or looking to expand the system further (to Ford on Bay or Atlantic Blvd, perhaps).

If we can be honest with ourselves, we have viable solutions that can be implemented and more options to move forward with than we tend to believe.  The largest question for me is will JTA and COJ's leaders embrace this line of thinking, even if it is something that makes more sense than the product we've been trying to make work over the last decade.

Or reviving the original Brooklyn Station plan:

This plan would need to be modified. The road now extends under the bridge for trucks to reach Whole Foods.

[jaxlongtimer]

Some interesting tidbits in this Florida Times Union article today...

Public votes leaning toward bigger trains but JTA says will require more investment to do.  Other leader is pedestrian/bicycle path. .  Seems U2C/Navi use isn't making the cut - yea!

Finally, JTA admits that Fed payback is "negotiable", something I have argued all along.  Has always been a red herring.  Should not be a factor in future outcomes.

Lastly, from his comments, I detect Ford starting to backpedal on his U2C plans.  Smelling the scent of failure?

Bigger Skyway trains or conversion to walking trail get public support

Public comments submitted so far on the future of the Skyway show the top choices are to either run bigger trains on the elevated structure or turn it into an above-ground path for walking and bicycling....

..."I said from the outset of this process that we as the JTA wanted to stay agnostic and the plans that were initially envisioned for the U2C and the Skyway need to be scrutinized along with all these other options and other possibilities," he said.

He said the next phase of the study will give a range of cost estimates for each alternative and have another round of public meetings with that information in the mix...

...The various alternatives do not include the possibility of purchasing new Skyway vehicles in a size that would work with the existing system.

JTA says the original manufacturer of the Skyway vehicles and its automated train control system "is no longer in business, and the technology was entirely proprietary. There is no manufacturer today that can produce new vehicles compatible with the existing system."

That leaves the options for Skyway vehicles being either rehabilitation of the aging vehicles or installing new trains that are heavier and would require "major updates" to the elevated guideway.

Depending on what alternative JTA chooses, the agency could be on the hook for payback of federal funding that helped build the Skyway system.

An April 2021 letter from the Federal Transit Administration said the federal government had invested about $100 million in the Skyway and as a condition of that grant, JTA must use the structure for "appropriate project purposes" for the life of the project.

Ford told the Duval DOGE Committee the Skyway structure has 14 years of useful life left and its vehicles have about two years of useful life remaining.

He said JTA recently reached out to the Federal Transit Administration about having negotiations on a reduced payback or transferring the remaining life of the Skyway onto other transportation-related assets owned by JTA.

"So we're very optimistic that we'll be able to reach something short of the up-to $100 million payback," Ford said...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2026/04/07/jta-hears-from-public-on-future-of-skyway-in-downtown-jacksonville/89217649007/?tbref=hp

[thelakelander]

That leaves the options for Skyway vehicles being either rehabilitation of the aging vehicles...

Ford told the Duval DOGE Committee the Skyway structure has 14 years of useful life left and its vehicles have about two years of useful life remaining.

Rehabilitation of the existing vehicles (the cheapest option on the table) buys you another 15 years, which aligns with the structure's useful life. Seems like a no brainer to me.

[Nmhatt]

I asked someone about this at the feedback meetings when I was there, but how much weight do the community responses actually have? Could JTA just ignore the results and do what they always planned to (converting the track for NAVI), or are they bound in some way by the outcome of the feedback? Something tells me that even if the results are between larger vehicles and a walking track that neither of those will actually end up happening.

[Ken_FSU]

Public comments submitted so far on the future of the Skyway show the top choices are to either run bigger trains on the elevated structure or turn it into an above-ground path for walking and bicycling.

Please don't laugh at me, as this might be a little bit of radical idea.

What if we did this on the ground instead, in some cases directly beneath the existing Skyway tracks? Ambitious, but I"m picturing maybe 30 miles of pedestrian & bicycle trails, greenways and parks encircling the urban core, link somewhere in the ballpark of 14 historic neighborhoods.

Don't judge.

[Ned Plimpton]

Public comments submitted so far on the future of the Skyway show the top choices are to either run bigger trains on the elevated structure or turn it into an above-ground path for walking and bicycling.

Please don't laugh at me, as this might be a little bit of radical idea.

What if we did this on the ground instead, in some cases directly beneath the existing Skyway tracks? Ambitious, but I"m picturing maybe 30 miles of pedestrian & bicycle trails, greenways and parks encircling the urban core, link somewhere in the ballpark of 14 historic neighborhoods.

Don't judge.

Interesting.  So like a full trail network?  I like the greenways and parks component of it. What if we even gave it a snazzy name to help with it's notoriety?  How about something flashy like The Emerald Trail?  It's just a first draft, but I think the name should tie in both the green spaces and the walking paths.  Is that crazy?

[Ken_FSU]

Public comments submitted so far on the future of the Skyway show the top choices are to either run bigger trains on the elevated structure or turn it into an above-ground path for walking and bicycling.

Please don't laugh at me, as this might be a little bit of radical idea.

What if we did this on the ground instead, in some cases directly beneath the existing Skyway tracks? Ambitious, but I"m picturing maybe 30 miles of pedestrian & bicycle trails, greenways and parks encircling the urban core, link somewhere in the ballpark of 14 historic neighborhoods.

Don't judge.

Interesting.  So like a full trail network?  I like the greenways and parks component of it. What if we even gave it a snazzy name to help with it's notoriety?  How about something flashy like The Emerald Trail?  It's just a first draft, but I think the name should tie in both the green spaces and the walking paths.  Is that crazy?

I fear we may be ahead of our time

Let's go with the fallback plan of spending $150m+ to:
1) Take downtown's most functional transit system offline
2) Replace it with a narrow elevated sidewalk that separates downtown's few pedestrians from our struggling retail storefronts

[thelakelander]

^You two are on to something. What about if we could make it more unique, environmental friendly and resilient by restoring to long polluted creeks in the process? Sorry, maybe thats too ambitious of a dream.

[Ken_FSU]

^You two are on to something. What about if we could make it more unique, environmental friendly and resilient by restoring to long polluted creeks in the process? Sorry, maybe thats too ambitious of a dream.

Now you're just being CRAZY, Ennis.