JTA meetings on the future of the Skyway

[thelakelander]

Maybe the Skyway track is salvageable for some future use but as long as JTA is calling the shots the way they are doing today, don't expect the public to buy in.  If JTA is going to continue to screw the pooch, here is a compromise:  Convert the Skyway track to a pedestrian/bike path that even JTA would have a hard time screwing up.  When a day ever comes that JTA is a competently run MASS transit agency, maybe convert the Skyway track back to carrying a proper vehicle as some of you are proposing here.  We will save millions in dollars in the meantime that the current JTA will just be flushing down the drain.

This would be another boondoggle. This would still cost hundreds of millions and serve a fraction of the population recreationally, if even feasible. The width of the Skyway is so narrow, you would not be able to allow bikes up there. Then after all the money is burnt, we're still looking at a few billion and decades for a transit replacement, considering the type of river crossing needing to be constructed for an alternative. Some real analysis work and planning should be done prior to a decision to raze or eliminate 2.5 miles of dedicated transit ROW. It would really be shortsighted to make that move without a viable mass transit alternative decided on, funded and moving forward.

[thelakelander]

I agree that JTA has an incredibly difficult job. I think that many on this board wish JTA would focus on doing THAT job, and not trying to out-silicon-valley Silicon Valley. And, that job is providing reliable mass transit services to the people of Jacksonville, for work, education, and recreation/entertainment.

I'd agree with this. Focusing on the basics would really be a great thing. Its difficult enough trying to provide transit services for city spread out over 800 square miles, without making some tough decisions. It gets worse when factoring in the local politics, cottage industries and consulting practices in town that have little to do with logic or the agency's core mission and reason for existing.

[Jax_Developer]

Just to put it out there... I also disagree with the majority of this board on the negative opinions on JTA's leadership on this.  Nat knows what he is doing.  JTA has an incredibly tough job in this city.  They get a lot more right than they get wrong.  They are working on doing something really transformative, which is rarely attempted in government.  It's not going to go perfectly, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Many on this board were extremely skeptical of Lori Boyer and the DIA 2-3 years ago... but there was a vision, and it came together, and now (while there is still a long way to go) people are really starting to see and believe in true progress in downtown. And now, in hindsight, opinions here seem to have shifted in a positive direction on Lori and the DIA.  I think at some point in the future the same thing will happen with JTA.

Lori Boyer had years of experience in LUZ, Economics and Government Affairs. I would agree many here didn't understand the position she was in but she was absolutely qualified.

Nat Ford, nothing against him personally either, has literally zero technical background or experience with AV's. The entire JTA staff has zero technical background or experience with AV's.

There simply is no equating the two. Again the main 'co-founder' of this program, per Nat Ford's own words... is a civil engineer. This isn't news but the sad reality is that our business community doesn't have the Technology Leadership to call this BS out. Yes we're just some plp upset online but if a local Technology business with greater or equal influence to JWB (for example) called out the program, this wouldn't be a conversation right now & we wouldn't see absolute silence from the rest at the top. 

In other cities, this program would already be dead with a clean leadership sweep. Truly incredible what is happening at JTA right now.

[Jankelope]

The U2C money could genuinely preserve the skyway for decades and decades to come with new cars, modernization, and a great Brooklyn station.

Skyway, even in it's dilapidated form is still a monorail that crosses our massive river. That's a pretty cool thing as we are building up so much around the Skyway stations. Increased ridership is inevitable.

Imagine also having left over money for finishing the Emerald Trail quicker, starting development of First Coast Commuter Rail, bringing Amtrak downtown, etc.

[jaxlongtimer]

And the hits keep on coming...

JTA reports nearly $9M deficit in late December; auditors flag revenue and expenditure concerns

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The Jacksonville Transportation Authority reported a nearly $9 million deficit in late December, according to a newly released council auditors' report.

Action News Jax reporter Yona Gavino has been following JTA's finances and asked the city auditor how this happened.

"This latest audit follows my last report on this in January, showing JTA was nearly $19 million over budget last year," Yona Gavino said.

Last year's overspending by JTA was driven by costs that included $10 million for its Connexion service and $7 million for its autonomous shuttle program. But revenue concerns don't stop there....

....JTA says it will end the year on budget, but auditors point to a potential problem with the math. The agency is banking on sales and gas tax revenue to come in exactly as planned, but initial projections show those collections might fall short, according to the council auditor's report....

....It's not just revenue—expenditures are climbing, too. Auditors say programs like Connexion Plus, JTA's service for the elderly and disabled, were significantly under-budgeted....

....Add in unexpected health insurance hikes for staff and lower fare revenue from a new pilot program, and the deficit grows.

JTA is now working on a budget amendment to address the gap, but the auditor says it's still unclear how they'll fix it.

In a statement, the city auditor said in part: "While JTA projects that they will be on budget for the ½ cent transportation tax and gas taxes, our first quarter projections indicate they may come in lower than budget. However, this is only a portion of potential budgetary issues and it really is too soon to tell from just one quarter."

https://www.wokv.com/news/local/jta-reports-nearly-9m-deficit-late-december-auditors-flag-revenue-expenditure-concerns/CLWUFLXJYVAFFGB5QJSGZGEYSE/

[Ken_FSU]

Does anyone know how well protected the Emerald Trail money is if JTA continues operating deeply in the red? As in, do they have the ability to use gas tax money intended for the Emerald Trail to reconcile budgets on the transit side?

[Charles Hunter]

Is anyone here planning to attend either of the Day One meetings this Wednesday?

[outis]

I'll be there on behalf of the mayor's office. Would be great if others came too.

[jcjohnpaint]

Only going to make March meeting

[thelakelander]

I will try to make the March 5th meeting when I'm back in town.

[Jankelope]

Does anyone know how well protected the Emerald Trail money is if JTA continues operating deeply in the red? As in, do they have the ability to use gas tax money intended for the Emerald Trail to reconcile budgets on the transit side?

This is the million dollar question. Emerald Trail should have had most of this money in the first place. We could have been proceeding at a dramatically quicker pace with a proven, sustainable, economically beneficial project instead of wasting so many millions in R&D and trying to compete with Silicon Valley on autonomous vehicles (lol)

[Jax_Developer]

I love the idea of a Transit Agency running primarily (65% of JTA's Total Budget) off of a Gas Tax while single handedly making sure that Gas Vehicles are the only form of transit that is remotely viable.

[marcuscnelson]

Interesting thread, sorry to be looking so late.

Like others have said, the glaring question is probably what outcome JTA is either expecting from this process or attempting to direct the process towards. It's not clear to me the extent to which these meetings are separate from or part of the U2C program, and where the options stand in relation to JTA's previous efforts to move that program forward using the Skyway's infrastructure. For all we know it could largely be for naught because this is just checking a box on plans they already have.

I do think that we might as well take this process (since I imagine JTA are paying consultants handsomely to facilitate it) to consider for a moment what our longer-term objectives might be with urban transit and its relationship to broader regional systems. As thelakelander has pointed out before, we have now spent the ~$70 million on NAVI, it'll have been a year in service in just a few more months. Now is a great time to ask ourselves if we feel that has been a success for mass transit in Jacksonville or if it is time to change course for something that could be. What we should not do now is insist on coming up with excuses to put more shuttles in places they might not work well simply to justify the City's incentives or JTA's lobbying for the Holon plant, whenever that opens. Even if these meetings are specific to the elevated system, we need to look at it in relation to what else we might invest in going forward, and how people might actually use it to get around.

As far as the options themselves, I agree that No-Build is unacceptable for the nation's tenth-largest city. Total removal I have a similar distaste for, given what a waste of all that infrastructure that would be. The partial removal alternative is rather vague, I don't understand what the benefit would be of just tearing out the monorail with no plan after that.

Partial Replacement 1 is potentially interesting, although I suspect the greatest risk. The present Skyway system is already somewhat bespoke (and old), given the only other clearly parallel system being the now-demolished Tampa Airport monorail, and a possible (distant) cousin at Newark Airport is beginning its replacement program now. There's a reason the APM market has drastically shrunken over the decades, and a "like" replacement that wouldn't require more substantial reworks of signal and operating systems is going to be very bespoke, and the largest APM firms like Alstom or Mitsubishi either don't have directly compatible systems or likely wouldn't see this as worth their time. Your vendor options would probably be some mix of either Schwager Davis or Woojin from last time, and maybe some attempt by BYD/RIDE if there somehow aren't federal constraints on that, with perhaps some other very small manufacturer that isn't on the radar. Basically all of those options mean likely importing the trains and/or spending a good chunk of the contract amount building the ability to build trains. I would expect that no matter what at this point, there is not an alternative that would deliver passenger transit service by 2028-29 besides No-Build. By the time you complete this public process, go to vendors in a bidding process, sign a contract with one, they get subcontractors, make all the necessary agreements, actually design, build, and ship the trains, and test them to enter service, I think you are looking at mid-2030 at the earliest, probably later. O'Hare Airport had a longer timeline with much more proven technology that Bombardier-Alstom already had experience building in Taiwan.

Which brings us to Partial Replacement 2. In theory, it provides the greatest flexibility, but yes also includes a lot of unknowns. It'd be a difficult thing to rush through, and given JTA's history of repeatedly screwing this up might not be worth the risk of needing to commit to a new system for the long-run. At the same time, there are also risks to not committing. I can't speak for Mr. Sifakis but I'm not totally sure how developments with plans for things like less parking or better orientation towards transit access will look at their plans with the knowledge that we are making a temporary choice that could very well still be demolished in another decade or so anyway. Maybe that's fine, I'm just not sure. At the end of the day, we really need to decide what we actually want from transit, or whether we want to join the likes of Seminole County in not really caring about it at all.

[marcuscnelson]

Interesting point Alex Sifakis. Which prompts a question - who makes the Disney monorail cars? Making shorter cars shouldn't be a huge engineering issue - unlike JTA's trying to invent a tech that private industry is perfecting and advancing every day.

The monorail trains currently used at Disney World were built by Bombardier (now Alstom). It's worth noting that those trains haven't actually been newly constructed since the Skyway was originally opened in 1989. I'm doubtful Alstom would be willing to take on the liability of a very small and relatively bespoke order when the responsible facility for APM systems is already plenty busy with much more standard system replacements at many airports.

Doesn't the Skyway have other issues that prevent it from being worthwhile other than just finding cars to keep it going?  Like, short station platforms that limit how many persons the Skyway can move at a time?  Capacity limits due to speed and traffic management?  Cost of expansion and operations vs. other options?

Too many times JTA has far exceeded costs estimates while falling far short of usage and service relating to almost anything it proposes.  I have trouble accepting anything they propose as the best bang for the buck unless independent and competent third parties validate it.

Even if option #4 made any kind of sense, I don't trust JTA to pull it off as they will likely promise.  As such, my vote currently remains for #2 or #3.  Waiting for someone to show me with certainty that any other option is better.

P.S. JTA doesn't run any kind of robust urban circulating mass transit now.  What makes anyone think they would do so in the future with current management?

The Skyway for at least the last quarter-century has only used about half of its station platforms. In theory, if you were to buy new trains that were actually as long as the whole platform, and then ran them reliably at all hours day and night (which is absolutely technically possible, aside from maintenance downtime), you'd have plenty of capacity (and potentially demand) to extend elsewhere. Speed would definitely be an issue for making time-competitive extensions to say, the Beaches, but you'd probably want to use different technology for that anyway. For extending the current system to Brooklyn or into San Marco, or replacing NAVI with an elevated line to the Sports Complex, its speed is fine.

Just to put it out there... I also disagree with the majority of this board on the negative opinions on JTA's leadership on this.  Nat knows what he is doing.  JTA has an incredibly tough job in this city.  They get a lot more right than they get wrong.  They are working on doing something really transformative, which is rarely attempted in government.  It's not going to go perfectly, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Many on this board were extremely skeptical of Lori Boyer and the DIA 2-3 years ago... but there was a vision, and it came together, and now (while there is still a long way to go) people are really starting to see and believe in true progress in downtown. And now, in hindsight, opinions here seem to have shifted in a positive direction on Lori and the DIA.  I think at some point in the future the same thing will happen with JTA.

I find myself asking a lot about the right and wrong reasons to do things lately. JTA having a tough job as a transit agency in America is certainly the right reason for a lot of things, even creative and dare I say "innovative" things to make every dollar count. I would really hesitate to include the decisions they've made with the U2C as being among those. As much as JTA themselves and the Mayor and plenty of other boosters have said to that end, they would all have much more credibility on this issue if their focus was clearly on how to best provide mass transit for the region than on whether to do something "really transformative."

It was only a few short years ago that JTA executives were very confidently telling the Board and City officials that they were at no risk of a fiscal cliff like many other transit agencies. That lofty position seems to have evaporated in short order.

[marcuscnelson]

Channel 4 is reporting on a completely different set of five options from the first public meeting today:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2026/02/25/jta-hosting-first-public-meeting-for-input-on-skyway-modernization-plan/

Option 1: Repair and retrofit existing cars
Option 2: Replace cars with new, modern trains
Option 3: Convert the skyway into a dedicated roadway for autonomous vehicles
Option 4: Demolish the skyway and put autonomous vehicles on the street
Option 5: Turn the skyway into a walkable trail

I see Mr. Sifakis on camera endorsing the new Option 1, which specifies that there would be a new train control system, while it's not precisely clear if the rehabbed/rebuilt cars would only be overhauls of the existing carshells or new trains compatible with the existing guideway.

There's also now an online survey discussing the options, which are separate from the No-Build option.

There's a render of Option 2:



Option 3:



Option 4:



And Option 5: