Peterbrooke Downtown closed

[thelakelander]

^Its a combination of things, IMO. Hate sounding like a broken record but the eviction of +30 retailers, restaurants and the demoliton of the Landing and the free consistent programming of events there was a generational loss for foot traffic and progress. With revitalization, you add to your existing assets, not remove them for unfunded dreams, fool's gold and political theatre. Layer that with the impact of the pandemic (remember the office market wasn't great prepandemic) and the inability to finish the majority of projects proposed during the early 2000s economic boom of and you'll end up where we are today. While we have a lot of infrastructure projects under construction, it will take years for them to come online and there's the reality that some spaces like Riverfront Plaza, will not attract as much people as previous uses consistently did. The most important thing is to accept the reality but work effectively to get as many public and private projects under way and completed as fast as possible. That will also need to layered with enhanced emphasis on clustering and programming. We're in the dog days but not all is lost.

[BridgeTroll]

I knew you had a better,  more thoughtful, on target, answer than I would have... We have heard this.... for too long.

We're in the dog days but not all is lost.

We need better

[jaxlongtimer]

I think people care but don't have the answers to quickly address the situation. Most of the necessary investments and solutions will take years to implement and businesses struggling to survive will not be around when these things come on line. This is the reality of not doing the right things 5, 10, 15 years ago. Warning signs about decisions being a generational setback were expressed and ignored back then. I'm confident things will get better but we'll have to live with the outcome of previous poor public decision-making before they get better.

If we immediately repurposed the hundreds of millions in developer incentives to building a viable and sustainable master plan, historic preservation, attractive streetscapes lined with small local businesses supported by appropriate Downtown zoning, increased public/green spaces to host events and programming, increased security 24/7 and replacing U2C with robust urban centered mass transit, we could have Downtown on a roll within months, not decades.  But, where do you see DIA or anyone advocating for Downtown development promoting any of these things?  Not rocket science, just plain common sense, implemented in hundreds of small, medium and large towns and cities worldwide but not here.

I don't see Khan's entertainment district, the Gateway project or the District being successful unless they are totally self sufficient and self contained.  And, if successful, where is the connecting tissue to spread that success to all of the urban core if their success is self made?  I don't see anyone filling in those gaps.

[thelakelander]

I think people care but don't have the answers to quickly address the situation. Most of the necessary investments and solutions will take years to implement and businesses struggling to survive will not be around when these things come on line. This is the reality of not doing the right things 5, 10, 15 years ago. Warning signs about decisions being a generational setback were expressed and ignored back then. I'm confident things will get better but we'll have to live with the outcome of previous poor public decision-making before they get better.

If we immediately repurposed the hundreds of millions in developer incentives to building a viable and sustainable master plan, historic preservation, attractive streetscapes lined with small local businesses supported by appropriate Downtown zoning, increased public/green spaces to host events and programming, increased security 24/7 and replacing U2C with robust urban centered mass transit,

Making a scope, bidding it out, making a consultant selection, negotiating a contract, etc. could take six months to a year. Doing a plan with extensive community engagement could take another year. Then money would have to be allocated behind anything that plan recommends for implementation. Nothing will be rolling within months but its not all bad news.

...we could have Downtown on a roll within months, not decades.

I think we can have things moving in an upward direction by the end of Deegan's first term. Around that time, many of the park and infrastructure projects under construction now will be recently completed.

I don't see Khan's entertainment district, the Gateway project or the District being successful unless they are totally self sufficient and self contained.  And, if successful, where is the connecting tissue to spread that success to all of the urban core if their success is self made?  I don't see anyone filling in those gaps.

Khan's stuff will be a second node but that entertainment district is still plus five years out before one person pays for an overpriced Lot J craft beer. Gateway's fortunes will be better than most projects because they've acquired enough land to master plan its own little self contained environment. Next time in Tampa, check out Water Street. It is a little node to itself that happens to be adjacent to the Channel District. Yet, there's still a gulf of emptiness around the Lee Roy Selman Expressway, between Water Street and Tampa's historic downtown.

[CityLife]

Khan's stuff will be a second node but that entertainment district is still plus five years out before one person pays for an overpriced Lot J craft beer. Gateway's fortunes will be better than most projects because they've acquired enough land to master plan its own little self contained environment. Next time in Tampa, check out Water Street. It is a little node to itself that happens to be adjacent to the Channel District. Yet, there's still a gulf of emptiness around the Lee Roy Selman Expressway, between Water Street and Tampa's historic downtown.

I haven't been to Tampa in a couple years, so I'm interested to see how Water Street has progressed when I visit in a few weeks. Wouldn't you agree that Water Street has a lot more assets near it than Gateway? It's right next to the Lightning stadium that hosts 41 hockey games yearly, plus concerts. It's close to the Convention Center and close to Sparkman Wharf, Port, and Florida Aquarium. It's right along the free streetcar route to Ybor and has another streetcar route that connects to the rest of Downtown Tampa. It's also the closest major commercial area to Harbour Island. It's the closest part of Downtown Tampa to Hyde Park and Davis Islands, which are very desirable places to live with residents with disposable income. It's also right across the water from Tampa General (3rd largest hospital in Florida), with an easy water taxi ride or short drive.

I think the Jacksonville equivalent would be if Gateway was in Brooklyn, but Brooklyn had a Skyway stop, Vystar Arena, the old Landing, Shands a few blocks away, and MOSH.

Imo, I think Gateway only works if UF locates in or very near it.

[thelakelander]

Yes, Water Street has more in proximity but it and Pearl Street are also two very different projects. I think Gateway works regardless of UF. People want to be in the area and there's a market for what they are doing. Demand has never been the real issue with DT Jacksonville's struggles.

[Ken_FSU]

Anyone heard anything recent about UF's choice for location? Have they unofficially made up their mind? A couple of months ago, it felt like LaVilla was the leading choice, with the Fairgrounds being a distant third. Hearing more people talking about the Fairgrounds of late though as a real contender.

[jcjohnpaint]

Heard they haven't even started the process to go to the JEA building. I think Sasse is going to get scrutinized about his spending, especially this project and the following president will scrap it.

[jaxlongtimer]

Heard they haven't even started the process to go to the JEA building. I think Sasse is going to get scrutinized about his spending, especially this project and the following president will scrap it.

Only thing that may save it is momentum.  Not many universities that will walk away from $200 to $300 million in the pipeline to them.  And, the chair of UF's trustees is really the one pushing this the most, it seems, regardless of who the president is.  That said, this project has always seemed a bit mushy to me.  It would be a positive for Jax to get high level graduate programs here as that has been a significant deficiency over the decades in our economic development.  Less today than in the past, but still room for more.

[CityLife]

I don't think UF can walk away from the Jax project now. Vanderbilt is about to get approved to build a 300k square foot, $520 million dollar graduate campus in Downtown WPB where UF was previously in negotiations for their campus. They have already lined up 9 figures of private donations for the project. From what I've heard, many influential UF alums think walking away from WPB was a terrible decision. I don't see how UF can't walk away from that deal, only to do nothing in Jax.

Sounds like the Jax process could be a mess though. Sasse is under a lot of scrutiny for his spending and the guy he hired to spearhead the Jax project is not even close to the type of background you would expect to see for that role. Will be interesting to see what that $50 million has been used for...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2024/08/19/university-of-florida-jacksonville-graduate-campus-moving-ahead/74828839007/

[sandyshoes]

Reply to Heights Unknown (#4)...  Did you take your friend to The Landing, which was one of the places to be back in 1989?  It opened in 1986 or thereabouts, as I recall.  Sorry he didn't find that impressive, if you did make it there.  (A "B-52" at Mardi-Gras or whatever that bar was on the 2nd floor with the wall of frozen cocktails might have changed his mind). 

[marcuscnelson]

I don't think UF can walk away from the Jax project now. Vanderbilt is about to get approved to build a 300k square foot, $520 million dollar graduate campus in Downtown WPB where UF was previously in negotiations for their campus. They have already lined up 9 figures of private donations for the project. From what I've heard, many influential UF alums think walking away from WPB was a terrible decision. I don't see how UF can't walk away from that deal, only to do nothing in Jax.

Sounds like the Jax process could be a mess though. Sasse is under a lot of scrutiny for his spending and the guy he hired to spearhead the Jax project is not even close to the type of background you would expect to see for that role. Will be interesting to see what that $50 million has been used for...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2024/08/19/university-of-florida-jacksonville-graduate-campus-moving-ahead/74828839007/

A grad campus was moving (in WPB and then in Jax) before Sasse was in charge so I wouldn't expect it to go away with him leaving. We're in great luck that WPB's loss was our gain (although now they've apparently made up for it with Vanderbilt, I wonder if they'll have to name it after Ken Griffin).

Even if there are delays, I think it'll ultimately happen, but I don't think it's out of the question that in classic Jax fashion we might fail to capitalize on it, and wind up with a UF island surrounded by still-decaying urban core.

In general, it is definitely worrying to see what seems like a unique decline of downtown urban quality in Jacksonville as more and more cities are starting to take off. It's worse still to see denial among city leadership about those conditions. I recently read an article about a new SunRunner station in St. Petersburg and they mentioned having $9 billion of development in the works along the SunRunner corridor. The DIA claims there is $8 billion of development in the works downtown. Either $1 billion is a massive difference or someone isn't being completely upfront.

Now, that doesn't mean we should be ignorant of where there are wins. Brooklyn seems to be coming along, the Shipyards-Museum District-Stadium Redevelopment looks promising, Pearl Street/Gateway is exciting, the District is going slowly but still going, but those don't appear to be coming together in terms of a cohesive urban center, and there is a gaping lack of urban leadership to bring them together.

[jcjohnpaint]

The Sunrunner is the brt? They really did that project well unlike our brt.

[heights unknown]

Reply to Heights Unknown (#4)...  Did you take your friend to The Landing, which was one of the places to be back in 1989?  It opened in 1986 or thereabouts, as I recall.  Sorry he didn't find that impressive, if you did make it there.  (A "B-52" at Mardi-Gras or whatever that bar was on the 2nd floor with the wall of frozen cocktails might have changed his mind). 

Yes I did, and as I recall, he wasn't that impressed. It was during the day, weekday mind you in the afternoon and there wasn't much going on and not many people around; they use to have karaoke on the 2nd deck of the landing and we did that for a while, and we ate at one of the restaurants and watered down at a bar or two, but he was wondering where are the people? And...why isn't there a lot of other night clubs, restaurants, and other things to happen? In Europe, and I've lived in Europe, in Scotland and Germany, in many of the towns and cities, all of the "happenings" are in the center of those towns and cities; I think it's kind of changed since back then, but in general still the same.

[heights unknown]

I don't think UF can walk away from the Jax project now. Vanderbilt is about to get approved to build a 300k square foot, $520 million dollar graduate campus in Downtown WPB where UF was previously in negotiations for their campus. They have already lined up 9 figures of private donations for the project. From what I've heard, many influential UF alums think walking away from WPB was a terrible decision. I don't see how UF can't walk away from that deal, only to do nothing in Jax.

Sounds like the Jax process could be a mess though. Sasse is under a lot of scrutiny for his spending and the guy he hired to spearhead the Jax project is not even close to the type of background you would expect to see for that role. Will be interesting to see what that $50 million has been used for...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2024/08/19/university-of-florida-jacksonville-graduate-campus-moving-ahead/74828839007/

A grad campus was moving (in WPB and then in Jax) before Sasse was in charge so I wouldn't expect it to go away with him leaving. We're in great luck that WPB's loss was our gain (although now they've apparently made up for it with Vanderbilt, I wonder if they'll have to name it after Ken Griffin).

Even if there are delays, I think it'll ultimately happen, but I don't think it's out of the question that in classic Jax fashion we might fail to capitalize on it, and wind up with a UF island surrounded by still-decaying urban core.

In general, it is definitely worrying to see what seems like a unique decline of downtown urban quality in Jacksonville as more and more cities are starting to take off. It's worse still to see denial among city leadership about those conditions. I recently read an article about a new SunRunner station in St. Petersburg and they mentioned having $9 billion of development in the works along the SunRunner corridor. The DIA claims there is $8 billion of development in the works downtown. Either $1 billion is a massive difference or someone isn't being completely upfront.

Now, that doesn't mean we should be ignorant of where there are wins. Brooklyn seems to be coming along, the Shipyards-Museum District-Stadium Redevelopment looks promising, Pearl Street/Gateway is exciting, the District is going slowly but still going, but those don't appear to be coming together in terms of a cohesive urban center, and there is a gaping lack of urban leadership to bring them together.

And yes, other peer major or large cities are blowing Jax away, but, also smaller cities and even towns seems to be blowing Jax away as well.