Explosive Port Growth in Savannah, GA - How do we take part?

[Jax_Developer]

Thanks for these resources. The Times article has some good figures there. Port-capable land really seems constrained, so great to see connections being added. If we do hit 2 million TEU's by 2025, I'll be more than satisfied! That's a huge increase.

[BridgeTroll]

I may have missed it somewhere and it may not be germane to the discussion but does US Navy or military/ government shipping traffic figure into the numbers?  I don't believe Savannah handles any of that stuff... justa question...

[jaxlongtimer]

I don't see in the above discussion any references to other types of cargo than TEU's.  JaxPort does a big business in autos and maybe some aggregates.  I recall that much of Tampa's tonnage may be aggregates, specifically phosphate.  I don't know if there is a single measurement for all port activity given the multiple types of cargos.  Maybe a better measure would be the number of employees working the wharfs or otherwise are directly related to the port... after all, it really is about jobs  .

I did go on Google Maps and roughly measured that it about 20 miles to the heart of Savannah's port from the ocean, about the same distance as to Talleyrand here.  Blount Island is roughly 10 miles inland.  So inland travel distance doesn't appear to be a differentiating factor.  I wonder if dredging the St. Johns encountered more environmental issues to address vs. dredging the Savannah river but I would think they would be similar given the topography appearing to match up.

I know many Savannah warehouses have migrated to Pooler along I-95 and even into Statesboro, well inland, where I believe Walmart has a huge port-related facility.  Based on that, Baker County (which, coincidentally hosts a Walmart domestic distribution center) could easily match cheaper land I would think if that was an issue.

Based on TEU's alone, all this leads me to believe either Savannah has a better geographic location for the mid-Atlantic states and into the midwest, or has developed better shipping lanes or has some other advantage we haven't identified here.  Or, maybe they simply have made it a point to focus on containerized freight and not much of any other type of cargo whereas JaxPort has chosen to take a more diversified path.

Regarding cruise passengers, I have heard from port people that Jax will never be a major cruise port for several reasons.  First, most cruise ships today can not make it to our cruise terminal due to their large sizes.  Second, JaxPort believes there is more revenue from cargo than from passengers so, while they facilitate some smaller cruise ships, they are not going to invest to accommodate much more.

[thelakelander]

Access to more funding is the big advantage Savannah has over Jax that should not be overlooked or undervalued. You can plan and talk potential all day. None of it comes to fruition if you can't figure out how to implement. If any community should know this, it's Jacksonville.

As for Tampa, Polk County makes that port what it is. Most of what's being shipped out of there is phosphate rock. Yeah, it's heavier than anything coming in or out in containers. I would not be surprised if something like limestone is being shipped out of those mines on the outskirts of Miami/Fort Lauderdale out of Port Everglades.

[Jax_Developer]

I may have missed it somewhere and it may not be germane to the discussion but does US Navy or military/ government shipping traffic figure into the numbers?  I don't believe Savannah handles any of that stuff... justa question...

I recognize that Mayport does play a role in the greater JaxPort, but am mainly focused on the business side of this discussion than anything. Maybe if DC ever gives us a carrier we could consider that growth! You'd think they wouldn't want every Fleet Carrier in one port on the east coast but who knows. Maybe you have some insight on that ever happening Bridge?

I don't see in the above discussion any references to other types of cargo than TEU's.  JaxPort does a big business in autos and maybe some aggregates.  I recall that much of Tampa's tonnage may be aggregates, specifically phosphate.  I don't know if there is a single measurement for all port activity given the multiple types of cargos.  Maybe a better measure would be the number of employees working the wharfs or otherwise are directly related to the port... after all, it really is about jobs  .

I did go on Google Maps and roughly measured that it about 20 miles to the heart of Savannah's port from the ocean, about the same distance as to Talleyrand here.  Blount Island is roughly 10 miles inland.  So inland travel distance doesn't appear to be a differentiating factor.  I wonder if dredging the St. Johns encountered more environmental issues to address vs. dredging the Savannah river but I would think they would be similar given the topography appearing to match up.

I know many Savannah warehouses have migrated to Pooler along I-95 and even into Statesboro, well inland, where I believe Walmart has a huge port-related facility.  Based on that, Baker County (which, coincidentally hosts a Walmart domestic distribution center) could easily match cheaper land I would think if that was an issue.

Based on TEU's alone, all this leads me to believe either Savannah has a better geographic location for the mid-Atlantic states and into the midwest, or has developed better shipping lanes or has some other advantage we haven't identified here.  Or, maybe they simply have made it a point to focus on containerized freight and not much of any other type of cargo whereas JaxPort has chosen to take a more diversified path.

Regarding cruise passengers, I have heard from port people that Jax will never be a major cruise port for several reasons.  First, most cruise ships today can not make it to our cruise terminal due to their large sizes.  Second, JaxPort believes there is more revenue from cargo than from passengers so, while they facilitate some smaller cruise ships, they are not going to invest to accommodate much more.

Right, see I think the Cruise side of the aisle is out of the question for us. For this discussion, the cruise element heavily limits port growth for Miami, Everglades & Tampa. While we do have Mayport, we have a massive river that the other metros Florida metros don't benefit from. The reason for the focus on TEU's, is only because that's how ports are typically measured. Just very simply, a ports TEU output, is a direct measure of the capacity of that port. (Several things could constrain that, such as: berths, cranes, loading area etc.) Almost all modern cranes can move whatever can be stored in a shipping container, and the tonnage doesn't directly translate to the ports overall size.

For example, if you google it, google will tell you Shanghai is the largest port in the world. Shanghai is actually half the size of the largest port (Ningbo) by total tonnage, but if you compare that same port's TEU output, now Shangai is 1.5x its size. These ports are located near each other too. Which ironically are about 130 miles apart. One does more consumer goods, the other does minerals/aggregates. Ningbo, still has the world's third most TEU output, but is not considered larger than Shanghai if they were to be ranked.

As mentioned earlier, the idea that the economics of Savannah vs. Jacksonville are somehow vastly different, really does not have any economic justification or reasoning to explain why such a phenomenon would be true. There would need to be something locally that is vastly different than Savannah to explain something like that. In fact, I think Jacksonville has better economics for a port city than Savannah, but Savannah has clearly been able to grow with quite a bit of state support over the decades.

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Whether we want to admit it or not, these are not free markets. These are markets in which the government has intervened, and the most optimal outcome for the economy, might not be what we are seeing now. That outcome has clearly been influenced by the abundance of funding to Savannah, while Jacksonville has maybe been sidelined by other FL ports, it seems. None of that reflects on the economics of Jax vs. Savannah in a free market.

With the port dredge completed, it would be unfortunate to see JaxPort not take apart of future growth opportunities. JaxPort seems to be our biggest economic driver, and the ability to expand on already great progress does exist. It will take a ton of lobbying to activate more port lands beyond what is currently functional or planned, leading me to believe our port's growth is actually fairly constrained beyond optimization at its current state.

[thelakelander]

As mentioned earlier, the idea that the economics of Savannah vs. Jacksonville are somehow vastly different, really does not have any economic justification or reasoning to explain why such a phenomenon would be true. There would need to be something locally that is vastly different than Savannah to explain something like that. In fact, I think Jacksonville has better economics for a port city than Savannah, but Savannah has clearly been able to grow with quite a bit of state support over the decades.

Bingo. Can't talk economics without quick access to capital. Savannah has that by being one of two ports in the entire state of Georgia. No port in Florida can compare because we have so many competiting for the state's limited pool of allocated funds. Ballgame on that end.

[Jax_Developer]

As mentioned earlier, the idea that the economics of Savannah vs. Jacksonville are somehow vastly different, really does not have any economic justification or reasoning to explain why such a phenomenon would be true. There would need to be something locally that is vastly different than Savannah to explain something like that. In fact, I think Jacksonville has better economics for a port city than Savannah, but Savannah has clearly been able to grow with quite a bit of state support over the decades.

Bingo. Can't talk economics without quick access to capital. Savannah has that by being one of two ports in the entire state of Georgia. No port in Florida can compare because we have so many competiting for the state's limited pool of allocated funds. Ballgame on that end.

I guess I just disagree there. Our economy is twice of Georgia's. Funds are available, we just choose to spend them elsewhere.

[thelakelander]

There are several other factors at play that far outweigh local economy. when it comes to ports and their markets. If local economies were apples to apples, Brunswick's port would be much smaller than Fort Pierce's.

[CityLife]

There are several other factors at play that far outweigh local economy. when it comes to ports and their markets. If local economies were apples to apples, Brunswick's port would be much smaller than Fort Pierce's.

Yeah, one other thing Jax has going against it versus Savannah is that Savannah is all in on their port.  It is the number one focus of all of their economic development efforts and along with tourism, is the only thing they really have going on. Jax has a more diversified economy, with a lot of focus in other areas.

In sports analogy terms, it's like UGA (Savannah) is putting all of it's efforts into football, while having minimal in-state competition; where UF (Jax) has to compete with FSU, UM, and to a lesser extent UCF and USF, while also trying to be good at basketball, baseball, and women's sports.

[Jax_Developer]

Economies are certainly apples to apples in this situation. The state budget of Florida is $115B, the state budget of Georgia is $32B. Almost 4x the size... It's well established that the combined FL ports are no where near that proportion.

You both are essentially comparing a FBS program to an FCS program, yet the FCS is like North Dakota State playing against a poorly funded D1, like a Kent State, who is us in this example. A well funded FBS program, should be able to improve just as well, if not better than a well funded FCS.

There is money, it is simply being used elsewhere. I think that's a pretty safe statement to make here. As you have proven Lake, much of our funding has been federal, not state sourced.

[Charles Hunter]

A major factor limiting the expansion of Jaxport is the USMC facility occupying the eastern portion of Blount Island. Using Google Maps for a rough approximation, the Marines own about 55% of the island (1.4 square miles of 2.5 square miles). I'm not saying we should ask the Marines to leave, but it is a condition we must acknowledge.

[CityLife]

Economies are certainly apples to apples in this situation. The state budget of Florida is $115B, the state budget of Georgia is $32B. Almost 4x the size... It's well established that the combined FL ports are no where near that proportion.

You both are essentially comparing a FBS program to an FCS program, yet the FCS is like North Dakota State playing against a poorly funded D1, like a Kent State, who is us in this example. A well funded FBS program, should be able to improve just as well, if not better than a well funded FCS.

There is money, it is simply being used elsewhere. I think that's a pretty safe statement to make here. As you have proven Lake, much of our funding has been federal, not state sourced.

You are also focusing exclusively on TEU's as a measure of success and economic impacts. Port Everglades doesn't have as many TEU's as Jax, but supports 206k jobs. Same with Port of Miami that supports 334k jobs and $43 billion to Florida's economy. JaxPort supports 139k jobs and $31 billion in economic impact. Combined, those 2 ports support almost 4 times as many jobs as JaxPort. Then there are the impact those ports (and Canaveral) have on the tourism industry through cruising. They are the top 3 outbound cruise ports in the world and bring tons of visitors and $ into the state. Finally, the Port of Palm Beach is the mega yacht capital of the US and Everglades/FTL is the yacht capital of the US. There are 141k people employed in the marine industry in South Florida, and people in Jax would be surprised how much money people on these crews make. Having such a strong yachting environment is also part of the reason South Florida is such a desirable place for the rich to live or play. It brings in a huge amount of wealth into the state.

Long story short. Despite Jax having slightly more TEU's (1.3 million) than Port of Everglades (1.1 million) and Port of Miami (1.2 million), those ports are bigger economic development engines to the state and support a much larger economy. The GDP of South Florida is about 5x larger than Jax. Tampa's is almost double. Yes, they are basically on par per capita, but still tough for Jax to compete with economies of that scale for limited state dollars.

Georgia views funding for Savannah's port as a plus to both the Atlanta and Savannah economies. Atlanta sees the port as an extension of its economy and helps in federal and state lobbying efforts. In Florida, any dollars that go to one port are seen as competition to other ports. Not apples to apples at all.

[thelakelander]

^Yes, I agree with CityLife on this one. There are so many factors at play, that an exclusive focus on TEU's or the local community's economy should not be viewed as the end all measures of success and economic impact.

[Jax_Developer]

None of these conversations are relevant on a community scale. I never claimed our local economy being the justification for expansion. There are a laundry list of other reasons on a greater scale than locally. All of which (transit network, cost of living, river availability) are all simply facts. Compound that with our state's budget, the economic growth in the Southeast, everything being said supports obvious container growth. These are basic measures in any economy for cargo growth.

I'm not 100% focused on TEU's but I can understand why you are mentioning that. Obviously our combined ports service many more industries than just Savannah. Cruises, Military, I concede fully! That, is not what I am focused on, but it does seem to be what is being repeatedly mentioned in this thread. The conversation gets extremely nuanced when you factor in these industries as well. Fundamentally, the focus of starting this thread relates specifically to cargo transit.

All of these other industries have much greater powers beyond basic supply-chain's. At its core, people need goods. The argument that Jacksonville is not somehow well positioned to take growth from Savannah is honestly so closed minded. The factors at play, clearly, are heavily sourced from the state's backing vs. Georgia. Georgia sees container growth as a priority, Florida doesn't. That simple.

When a port 130 miles away is going to grow more than our entire port combined in the next 5 years, you really have to ask yourself if we are missing out on any action. That's the conversation here. You can bring up all the South Florida ports as counters to this missed opportunity, it all doesn't amount to anything meaningful in this context when we are specifically referring to this very hyper defined region in our national supply chain.

[Charles Hunter]

The factors at play, clearly, are heavily sourced from the state's backing vs. Georgia. Georgia sees container growth as a priority, Florida doesn't. That simple.

These are the key sentences in this discussion. It boils down to state support. I have to believe the leaders of the City and Jaxport would be able to spend additional state and federal funding, if it were available.

Interesting, when trying (unsuccessfully) to find how much state funding Savannah's port gets, I saw articles about two "limitations" they want to overcome:
+ They want to increase vertical clearance of the Talmadge Bridge, now at 185 feet.

GPB [NPR] News, Oct. 13, 2023
"We have ships today that want to come here today that cannot fit under the bridge," Lynch told reporters. "And we have had to turn that business away and tell our customers we can't do it."

In order to help the port meet its projected 65% container traffic growth in 2035, he expects that the Georgia Department of Transportation will begin lifting the bridge around October 2024 by adjusting its cables, with completion in late 2026 or early 2027.

The exact height of the lift has not been determined, but GDOT will make that decision in the coming months, Lynch said.

And, from the January 4, 2024 Atlanta-Journal Constitution (this is all I could read before hitting the paywall)

SAVANNAH — The Talmadge Bridge is in need of a yoga-like stretch, and the Georgia Department of Transportation has chosen the contractor to add as much as 20 feet of clearance beneath the 1,100-foot span.

Peachtree City-based Kiewit Infrastructure South is the lead contractor on a $189 million project that calls for replacing the bridge's support cables. The cable replacement is to begin in early 2025 and is expected to be completed in 2028. The project is considered a maintenance action but plans are for the new cables to be shorter in order to address calls from the Georgia Ports Authority for an increase in the bridge's 185-foot clearance, also known as aircraft.
https://www.ajc.com/politics/elevation-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge-inches-forward/Q7I2LUJ6KVE7BIHMMTTF4UTSUQ/

+ They also want to deepen the now 47 foot depth of the harbor.
More from the GPB article

Only after that project is complete could harbor deepening begin, in a process involving state and federal agencies that Lynch said would be achievable in nine or ten years and which would lower the river floor by roughly three to five feet.

At a current depth of 47 feet, the harbor underwent a roughly 25-year-long deepening project that finished in 2023, which has made it possible for the port to accommodate vessels carrying as much as 16,000 twenty-foot equivalent units (TEUs) of container cargo.

Further deepening would allow it to handle ships hauling up to 22,000 TEUs.

https://www.gpb.org/news/2023/10/13/raise-the-bridge-deepen-the-harbor-savannah-port-leader-says-more-room-needed-for