Is the Buckman bridge to be feared?

[Dolph1975]

Signage to indicate which lanes are free flowing, congested or blocked. also additional cameras throughout the bridge.

Does anyone know what the new electric (currently not on) signage is about that's gone up on the northbound lanes of the bridge?

Thanks!!

[jaxlongtimer]

The scariest bridge I ever drove over that is at the top of most every list for US bridges is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge in Maryland.  The original span is very narrow and, at the top, the sides are just a couple of high tension horizontal cables between you and the blue sky above and the blue water below.  There is absolutely no margin for error!

The Chesapeake Bay Bridge is located in Maryland. The bridge is nearly 200 feet high and stretches 4.3 miles over the Chesapeake Bay.

Due to the bridge's significant height above open water and length of the bridge, many drivers have reported having panic attacks while driving across the bridge, including their vision tunneling and fearing a complete loss of control of their vehicles.

Fear of the bridge has become so commonplace, a small company called Bay Bridge Drive-Overs has been created surrounding the bridge. The service will drive you over the bridge in your own car for a $25 fee. Alex Robinson, the owner of the company, reports an incredible amount of business. He drives dozens of customers over the bridge every day, making an effort to keep conversation away from the bridge to ease the nerves of his customers.

"It's functionally obsolete," said one customer. "There's no emergency pull-off." Bridge go-ers have even reported seeking psychological therapy to overcome their fear of the bridge.

My nomination for scariest bridge in the U.S., the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, just added another reason to worry per the CNN article below. Interestingly, two Jacksonville ties arise in the article as highlighted below.  Seems lots of bridges could be vulnerable to what happened in Baltimore and we are not immune.

Major US bridges could be vulnerable to ship collisions, including one just downstream from Key Bridge

...But the now-ruined structure isn't the only bridge along that same key shipping route: Twenty miles downstream, massive container ships headed to Baltimore also pass under the Chesapeake Bay Bridge near Annapolis. And according to experts who reviewed its design for CNN, it could also be at risk of collapse if one of those vessels rammed into it.

Several of the four-mile-long Bay Bridge's concrete piers, which sit in the middle of the shipping channel, appear vulnerable to the type of ship collision that destroyed the Key Bridge, experts said.

The bridge is "lacking in safety measures," said Adel ElSafty, an engineering professor at the University of North Florida, who said the structure should be reassessed in light of the Key Bridge collapse. "It could very much be vulnerable to a ship impact."...

....Other bridges have installed "dolphins," circular, typically concrete structures detached from a bridge that can block ships before they reach a bridge. Major bridges near Jacksonville, Florida,and Mobile, Alabama, for example, have large dolphins between their main piers and the shipping channels they cross.

Still, dolphins don't always work – as the Key Bridge disaster demonstrates. When the sun rose in Baltimore last week after the early-morning collapse, one of the four small dolphins around the bridge could be seen intact to the side of the Dali's hull, amid a tangled mess of fallen steel. The ship had hit the bridge at an angle that just missed the dolphin, rendering it useless.

Several experts told CNN that the Key Bridge's dolphins seemed to be of inadequate size. "You don't want a ship to be able to maneuver around the dolphins and still hit the bridge directly," Aghayere said....

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/us/major-us-bridge-vulnerability-invs/index.html

[thelakelander]

A view of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge from last summer. Ended up visiting some of the fields north of Cape Charles that my grandfather's potato harvesting crew used to work back in the 1950s and 60s.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Ennis, thanks for sharing but the picture doesn't do it justice for scariness  . 

At several miles long, you can't see the 200 foot high section clearly in this picture.  The other, newer, span is 3 lanes so if you stay in the middle lane and only look straight ahead, you have a fighting chance to keep your nerves intact.  The addition of concrete barriers on the sides to replace the cabled railings on portions of the spans also has helped a little bit.  To me, given the curve in the approaches that enable you to see just how "out there" you are about to be is also a contributor to fraying nerves with the anticipation of what is ahead.

My best ride was during darkness when you couldn't see how "out there" you were.  I strongly recommend this for those most intimidated otherwise  .

[Charles Hunter]

I remember when the Dames Point Bridge was proposed, the port interests pushed back hard on the initial design. As a result, the vertical clearance at 175' is more than JTA had proposed (I don't remember their proposed height), and the south pier is on the shore of Quarantine Island, and not adjacent to the channel.  Looking at the dolphins protecting the north bridge pier on a Google aerial, it looks like a ship heading toward the ocean and losing steering has a path to the pier. If I remember discussions about this (back in the 1970s/80s), an argument was that river currents coming around Blount Island would push ships away from the north pier.  It looks like the other dolphin adequately protects against incoming ships. I am assuming the river is too shallow between the eastern dolphin and the riverbank for large ships.

[jaxlongtimer]

I remember when the Dames Point Bridge was proposed, the port interests pushed back hard on the initial design. As a result, the vertical clearance at 175' is more than JTA had proposed (I don't remember their proposed height), and the south pier is on the shore of Quarantine Island, and not adjacent to the channel.  Looking at the dolphins protecting the north bridge pier on a Google aerial, it looks like a ship heading toward the ocean and losing steering has a path to the pier. If I remember discussions about this (back in the 1970s/80s), an argument was that river currents coming around Blount Island would push ships away from the north pier.  It looks like the other dolphin adequately protects against incoming ships. I am assuming the river is too shallow between the eastern dolphin and the riverbank for large ships.

Charles, my recollections mirror yours with one note to add.  The maritime industry still had concerns about the location of the piers given the currents and turn in the river there.  They also wanted the bridge to be higher.  I seem to recall at least 195 feet.  Over time, they were right to push for more height as many of today's largest ships can't clear the current height.  We can dredge all day long but height is also an issue as demonstrated by JEA's power lines over the river.  Typical of JTA, they just wanted to build a bridge at the time, no matter these issues.  It was originally supposed to financed as a toll bridge and the tolls were not going to pay for this bridge (see the current Outer Beltway for the same issue) so JTA wanted to build it on the cheap.  Typical Jacksonville approach to projects over the decades.

[acme54321]

The river rips around that bend and it drops off super quick along the shore of Quarantine Island under the bridge.  So I bet a ship could hit the bridge there in the right conditions.  We do have a might tighter waterway than they do in Baltimore though and most of these ships are escorted down river by tugs, whose presence would be a major factor in an emergency situation.

[Captain Zissou]

A view of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge from last summer. Ended up visiting some of the fields north of Cape Charles that my grandfather's potato harvesting crew used to work back in the 1950s and 60s.

I've only been over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge a couple of times, but I hated it.  I believe there is a professional service that will drive your car across the bridge if you're too nervous.

[jaxlongtimer]

A view of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge from last summer. Ended up visiting some of the fields north of Cape Charles that my grandfather's potato harvesting crew used to work back in the 1950s and 60s.

I've only been over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge a couple of times, but I hated it.  I believe there is a professional service that will drive your car across the bridge if you're too nervous.

Captain, yes, see info in my prior post below:

The scariest bridge I ever drove over that is at the top of most every list for US bridges is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge in Maryland.  The original span is very narrow and, at the top, the sides are just a couple of high tension horizontal cables between you and the blue sky above and the blue water below.  There is absolutely no margin for error!

The Chesapeake Bay Bridge is located in Maryland. The bridge is nearly 200 feet high and stretches 4.3 miles over the Chesapeake Bay.

Due to the bridge's significant height above open water and length of the bridge, many drivers have reported having panic attacks while driving across the bridge, including their vision tunneling and fearing a complete loss of control of their vehicles.

Fear of the bridge has become so commonplace, a small company called Bay Bridge Drive-Overs has been created surrounding the bridge. The service will drive you over the bridge in your own car for a $25 fee. Alex Robinson, the owner of the company, reports an incredible amount of business. He drives dozens of customers over the bridge every day, making an effort to keep conversation away from the bridge to ease the nerves of his customers.

"It's functionally obsolete," said one customer. "There's no emergency pull-off." Bridge go-ers have even reported seeking psychological therapy to overcome their fear of the bridge.

[thelakelander]

Wow! That's pretty cool to see someone make a business out of people's fears on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. This past summer, I was actually excited to drive over it. There was a bit of nostalgia, as I had not been on it since I was a kid.  I was also experiencing a bit of visioning what my ancestors had saw, as even my dad remembered when the family used to take the ferry into Cape Charles, prior to the bridge's construction. While there were no shoulders, I was pretty comfortable driving because the lanes were at least 11' to 12' wide. There was a bit of construction, as they are widening the bridge in certain sections, so traffic was slow moving.

[jax_hwy_engineer]

I drove all the way out to VA once just to drive the bridge-tunnels! Then again, I'm a road geek and just wanted to see the engineering marvels, especially since all 3 bridge-tunnel systems in the US are right there in Newport News.

It was raining and so windy, the tool attendant told me I couldn't drive the CBBT with my bike on the carrier on my trunk. I had to pull off to the side in the freezing rain to disassemble it and stuff it in my trunk and back seat because I did NOT want to wait for the shuttle to carry my bike across for me.

Very cool bridge.

As for the topic of bridges in Jax in the light of the Francis Scott Key bridge failure, all our bridges downtown at least have fender systems, and the Dames Point bridge has sizeable dolphins protecting the bridge pier that's in the water. The Baltimore bridge had no fenders or dolphins, even though the powerlines just north of it had fenders around all the support structures. Seems like a mistake to not include those on a bridge in such a busy shipping lane...

[Charles Hunter]

A friend who works in the local port industry says about half the ships going under the Dames Point Bridge do so with tugs assisting them.  He also said that ships going to/from the former Trapac dock (west side of Dames Point) would not have tug escorts.

[Florida Power And Light]

I am often on the water, on a boat at the Buckman.
I personally know Public Safety persons, and others that have responded to Cars/ Occupants " Over" the Bridge and Plunge below.
When passing under the Buckman, I do so at the fastest responsible speed possible.... Alert to Stuff Overhead Falling Down.

[Florida Power And Light]

I remember when the Dames Point Bridge was proposed, the port interests pushed back hard on the initial design. As a result, the vertical clearance at 175' is more than JTA had proposed (I don't remember their proposed height), and the south pier is on the shore of Quarantine Island, and not adjacent to the channel.  Looking at the dolphins protecting the north bridge pier on a Google aerial, it looks like a ship heading toward the ocean and losing steering has a path to the pier. If I remember discussions about this (back in the 1970s/80s), an argument was that river currents coming around Blount Island would push ships away from the north pier.  It looks like the other dolphin adequately protects against incoming ships. I am assuming the river is too shallow between the eastern dolphin and the riverbank for large ships.

JTA director at that time proclaimed a " panty waist" can not take on JTA.
Ann Grimes soon moved out, to Colorado.
I conducted a wonderful personal interview with Ann at her Avondale home just prior to her Move.


Charles, my recollections mirror yours with one note to add.  The maritime industry still had concerns about the location of the piers given the currents and turn in the river there.  They also wanted the bridge to be higher.  I seem to recall at least 195 feet.  Over time, they were right to push for more height as many of today's largest ships can't clear the current height.  We can dredge all day long but height is also an issue as demonstrated by JEA's power lines over the river.  Typical of JTA, they just wanted to build a bridge at the time, no matter these issues.  It was originally supposed to financed as a toll bridge and the tolls were not going to pay for this bridge (see the current Outer Beltway for the same issue) so JTA wanted to build it on the cheap.  Typical Jacksonville approach to projects over the decades.