Mayors call for more office-to-apartment conversions

[jaxlongtimer]

CityLife, how much of this space is filling up due to companies moving to South Florida from New York, etc.?  If that is happening, then for each of these openings, empty space is being created in NYC.  Just saying, is this a real gain, nationally, in more office space demand or just a transfer from elsewhere?

The other difference with Jax is South Florida downtowns are vibrant and ours is dead.  When companies come to Jax they are heading to the suburbs, not Downtown, like in these other cities. 

I note in your building pictures, all the buildings seem to have glass fronts facing street level, even the one with a garage.  In Jax, we don't have that requirement consistently applied causing so many dead zones at street level.  Until things like this change, Downtown is never going to thrive.

[thelakelander]

I don't think Jax has to worry about national trends with office space. The downtown office market has been in the dumps since the local banks and insurance company mergers from the 1980s and 1990s. There's a reason the Northbank skyline hasn't changed since then.

We also know what the alternative uses can be and have seen quite a few pop up in the Northbank over the last 30 years. Metropolitan Lofts, The Barnett, The Jessie, 11 East, U-Haul on Ashley Street, etc. are all good examples of old office space being converted into other uses.

[Jax_Developer]

I don't think Jax has to worry about national trends with office space.

That's the most respectful way to say "that" lol!

[vicupstate]

The Barnett, The Jessie, 11 East, U-Haul on Ashley Street, etc. are all good examples of old office space being converted into other uses.

The Carling also.

[CityLife]

CityLife, how much of this space is filling up due to companies moving to South Florida from New York, etc.?  If that is happening, then for each of these openings, empty space is being created in NYC.  Just saying, is this a real gain, nationally, in more office space demand or just a transfer from elsewhere?

The other difference with Jax is South Florida downtowns are vibrant and ours is dead.  When companies come to Jax they are heading to the suburbs, not Downtown, like in these other cities. 

Anecdotally, they are a combination of downsizings from the NE/Chicago/West Coast, pure relocations (Citadel, Elliott Management, etc), and providing flexible options for employees that have 2nd homes in South Florida or want to frequently spend time here. It's not uncommon for people to work part of the year in NYC (or elsewhere) and part in South Florida.

It's too complicated to fully deep dive into, but I just wanted to point out that the hyperbolic idea that office will soon meet the same fate as shopping malls is not entirely accurate. Especially in Florida, where Covid created all kinds of new opportunities. South Florida is an entirely different market to Jax simply due to the sheer number of wealthy business leaders that have homes in Miami or Palm Beach, but there should have still been all kinds of new additions to the office market in Jax after Covid.

As you said, Jax's downtown is dead and let me tell you guys. It is shockingly dead. Had Jax properly redeveloped throughout the 2010's, backfilling existing office vacancies and adding new office would have been a breeze during/after Covid. I personally don't believe office is dead and hope that Jax can get it's redevelopment done correctly so that it can pounce when the next big opportunity happens. Piggybacking on the UF campus may be that new opportunity.

[Charles Hunter]

The Barnett, The Jessie, 11 East, U-Haul on Ashley Street, etc. are all good examples of old office space being converted into other uses.

The Carling also.

Not to be that guy, but ... The Carling was a hotel (The Roosevelt) in its former life, not offices.

[thelakelander]

It's too complicated to fully deep dive into, but I just wanted to point out that the hyperbolic idea that office will soon meet the same fate as shopping malls is not entirely accurate. Especially in Florida, where Covid created all kinds of new opportunities. South Florida is an entirely different market to Jax simply due to the sheer number of wealthy business leaders that have homes in Miami or Palm Beach, but there should have still been all kinds of new additions to the office market in Jax after Covid.

I agree that office space isn't disappearing or going out the way that regional suburban malls have (these aren't completely going away either.....the retail model is just shifting). I also agree that DT Jax's office market has been dead for decades. Nothing new has changed. We just need to change how we address our local situation from a public investment and revitalization strategy perspective, IMO.

As you said, Jax's downtown is dead and let me tell you guys. It is shockingly dead. Had Jax properly redeveloped throughout the 2010's, backfilling existing office vacancies and adding new office would have been a breeze during/after Covid. I personally don't believe office is dead and hope that Jax can get it's redevelopment done correctly so that it can pounce when the next big opportunity happens. Piggybacking on the UF campus may be that new opportunity.

This is one of the primary reasons I stress that the city needs to make sure public offices employing thousands of workers need to remain in downtown. Whether its COJ, JSO, DCPS, etc., they all need to stay downtown. When the opportunities arise, they don't need to be building new crystal administrative palaces. Instead, they need to be helping back fill the excessive glut of underutilized office space we still have left over from the 1980s and 1990s bank mergers. Municipal agencies will need to put their own money where their mouths are to prop up the downtown market and be pretty strategic in where they locate to help create additional vibrancy and synergy.

From the private sector side, whether its additional hotel rooms (i.e. Laura Street Trio), apartments (i.e. Barnett, 11 East, Metropolitan Lofts, W. Knight Building, Florida Baptist Convention Building, etc.), educational space (i.e JU law going into the old Atlantic National Bank building), condos, etc. will depend on the specific building and site. If a once in a generation opportunity for new private space pops up (i.e. FIS headquarters), jump on it. All this to say....the potential uses are simple. No revolutionary thinking is needed. There's nothing innovative here. Its all common sense.

Now what will be needed, specifically for Downtown Jacksonville, is public focus and incentives to fill in some development capital stack issues.

[vicupstate]

The Barnett, The Jessie, 11 East, U-Haul on Ashley Street, etc. are all good examples of old office space being converted into other uses.

The Carling also.

Not to be that guy, but ... The Carling was a hotel (The Roosevelt) in its former life, not offices.

Indeed it was. Valid point but it did involve a total gut job, which would be the case with an office building, so somewhat still a relevant example.

[Ken_FSU]

Any talk of office-to-apartment conversions should begin with the Universal-Marion Building.

Golden opportunity for much-needed workforce housing in the CBD.

This is one I'd be perfectly happy subsidizing as well, as it would save historic building stock, add affordable housing, and boost downtown residency right in the heart of the urban core.

[thelakelander]

^Definitely blew the opportunity we had with City Hall Annex. The floor sizes are much larger with the Universal-Marion but the potential adaptive reuse options to evaluate (could even be a mix of these uses) are pretty much the same that they've always been:

- public/municipal offices
- education
- multifamily housing (market rate, affordable, luxury -- both rental and condo)
- boutique hotel
- smaller offices (more likely than one big tenant taking up the entire thing)
- various forms of retail (former Ivey's Department Store and Purcell's Womens Store spots)
- even self storage lol (upper floors of Ivey's were there are no windows)

It's a unique property and will require some creativity on how to fit certain types of uses into spaces with large floor plates and no windows (can't randomly punch windows into that six-story department store building if potentially using preservation money).

....Just got an idea for a future article. Examples of 1960s urban department store adaptive reuse projects!

[Ken_FSU]

^Definitely blew the opportunity we had with City Hall Annex.

Respectfully, I don't think you understand the vision.

The City Hall Annex had to be urgently demolished to clear the way for the first RFP, Jacobs Convention Center, Iguana Convention Center, 2nd RFP, Spandrel Apartments, 3rd RFP, Hardwick Version 1, Hardwick Version 2, 4th RFP.

It's all part of the master plan.

[Charles Hunter]

From WaPo, a look at success in Cleveland.

Our year-long project studying how to revive downtowns has identified three keys to success: First, to focus on a few blocks at a time (what urban planners call a "node"). Second, to make it as easy as possible to convert old office towers for new uses, via tax incentives and expedited permitting. Third, to offer unique amenities for residents, workers and tourists. Cleveland did all three in the area around Public Square.

https://wapo.st/3v8znB7

[jaxlongtimer]

From WaPo, a look at success in Cleveland.

Our year-long project studying how to revive downtowns has identified three keys to success: First, to focus on a few blocks at a time (what urban planners call a "node"). Second, to make it as easy as possible to convert old office towers for new uses, via tax incentives and expedited permitting. Third, to offer unique amenities for residents, workers and tourists. Cleveland did all three in the area around Public Square.

That 3rd item... offering "unique amenities for residents, workers, and tourists"... that is sadly lacking in our Downtown.  This should be priority one because without this nothing else matters.  Before spending hundreds of millions on incentives, lets make Downtown desirable.  At that point, if one still needs incentives, they need be far less because developers will be able to get higher rents/better returns due to the increase desirability of Downtown.  Jax has it backwards... giving big incentives to developers due to a lack of desirability currently which, based on the recent track record, still isn't enough.  We are a dog chasing its tail.

[thelakelander]

These things can also be described as a combination of the 3Cs (clustering complimenting uses within a compact setting) and a real master or strategic plan. Things that have long been mentioned here. Without a doubt, here that would be focusing on the Northbank core, in the vicinity of Laura and Hogan Streets between the riverfront and JWJ Park. It doesn't mean that there won't be opportunities that pop up outside that zone. However, it does mean that additional focus, prioritization and public funding is necessary.