Developer plans residential tower at former River City Brewery site

[thelakelander]

But you have to admit that we already have decades of experience of seeing that a museum and the park combined DO NOT create the kind of synergy that is desired.

MOSH (on its own) has survived just well. The Southbank Riverwalk remains popular too. I'd argue that the overall suburban and autocentric nature of the Southbank is the larger negative factor at play. That changes with additional compatible infill development. Related can help, as well as the redesign of the park and how it connects to the MOSH building (as of now, they don't connect at ground level).

I don't think simply swapping one museum for another is going to change that. Jacksonville is not a tourist mecca and likely never will be.  Even the cities that do draw a lot more tourists still cluster their cultural/museum/tourist sites together. Ideally, that would be the route Jacksonville takes as well. Friendship Fountain would be better off with an expanded park with expanded offerings (playground, shaded rest spots for runners to make it the focal point of the SB Riverwalk, additional fountains, etc.) with adjacent food and beverage amenities such as a food hall. A high rise residence would certainly help support that. Everything surrounding the Fountain is active only during business hours and that is part of the problem.  Having more land would allow for more and different programming as well.

All of these things are possible...with the building remaining as well. The building could be retrofited into many cultural, entertainment, etc. uses that operate outside of daytime business hours. Museums could work but so could research archives, spaces for cultural special events, education, etc. All of these uses should incorporate a F&B or retail component that is integrated with the park. I think the opportunity extends far beyond tourism from a traditional thinking of what tourism is. In essence,  it can be incorporated as an additional amenity within the park. But once it's gone, it's gone and whatever replaces it is likely something generic that could be built on any other surface parking lot in the immediate vicinity.

BTW, the Shipyards IS parkfront and waterfront space. In a ideal situation, JAX shouldn't divide its core of cultural resources.

Our reality is that destinations like the Ritz, Cummer, Friendship Fountain, etc. aren't going any where and even if we had the funds, should not be relocated from their historically linked communities and neighborhoods to an industrial site that's decades away itself from being converted into a park.

With the Ritz, I fully believe the exhibits should be revamped into an African American history, music or civil rights facility, anchoring LaVilla's role as the birthplace of the Chitlin Circuit.

So I don't think they (other sites and the MOSH building) take away from the Shipyards. Plus, ideally we should still focus on clustering things on both sides of the river between the Acosta and Hyatt, strengthening the Northbank and Southbank core riverfronts.  Like retrofitting the Landing (when we had that opportunity) I believe that thoughtful repurposing of the MOSH property could be a very unique opportunity for Jax that doesn't necessarily take away from any other goal or space in town. Instead, it takes advantage of the assets we already have.

[Jax_Developer]

In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.

I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.

It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.

[heights unknown]

In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.

I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.

It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.

I agree JaxDev I agree. Not to mimic Miami, but the Southbank could indeed be downtown Jax's Brickell (of a sort but more residential in nature).

[acme54321]

This is better than it was, but the apartments surroundin the garage could use work visually.

[heights unknown]

An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/

[Florida Power And Light]

" Approved" !
Not bad for a COJ Restaurant/ Lease.

[marcuscnelson]

An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/

This feels a bit like the Lot J/Shipyards debacle. The initial project fails for various reasons so there's this huge rush to get its replacement through as quickly as possible without fixing any of the fundamental issues, and even though the final project will ultimately be okay, it'll have missed out on a lot of potential improvements that could have been better long term.

In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.

I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.

It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.

The DIA seems to agree somewhat! Here's the part of their "Illustrative Master Plan" for the Southbank (red boxes are "Redevelopment Opportunities":



Depending on who ultimately buys up the major parcels at RiversEdge and the School Board building (if that relocation ever happens) will be a big piece of the puzzle. The fact that the DIA sees the Delta hotel as a redevelopment opportunity is very interesting, because it's a lot of land if used properly. In the end there's a reason most of the big condo towers ended up on the Southbank instead of elsewhere (save for Berkman).

In my opinion, there has to be a reason to justify getting rid of the parking even if you eliminate the minimums (which I believe they have). That means mass transportation. A half-hourly "BRT" system and a run-down monorail don't deliver on that, and neither will crewed "self-driving" cars. You already don't have to build parking in most of downtown, but residents (and lenders for these projects) have to feel confident that they can meet their daily needs and even most recreational needs without driving, and we haven't figured out how to give them that confidence.

[jcjohnpaint]

Just got back from Denver and they are building like 25 projects like this just around the Union Station.

[Jax_Developer]

An update from yesterday's meeting? Conceptual approval granted.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/river-city-brewing-development-earns-ddrb-conceptual-approval/

This feels a bit like the Lot J/Shipyards debacle. The initial project fails for various reasons so there's this huge rush to get its replacement through as quickly as possible without fixing any of the fundamental issues, and even though the final project will ultimately be okay, it'll have missed out on a lot of potential improvements that could have been better long term.

In my opinion the Southbank has the immediate potential to be a high-end residential district. This would require some effort by city planners to do so.. but the recipe is there. Some of the highest rents in the city, a few desirable entertainment areas nearby, and the river of course. When you look at the make up of the Southbank too, its not hindered like Brooklyn was with shotgun platted lots that needed to be purchased overtime. (Ditto LaVilla to a lesser degree). The Southbank has several block to block structures, and large acreage lots that could be extremely well repurposed.

I'm not sure if anyone is aware of this, but the former Prudential Building has over 10 acres of parking... 10 acres! Imagine what could be done there. The Ameris Bank Building owns 3-4 acres of surface parking... right next to the Main St bridge DT.

It would be almost too good to be true to see, but the Mosh building/friendship park could serve as a nightlife & retail hub being in the location that it is near the Riverwalk & Skyway Station. Overlay the Southbank to get rid of these massive parking lots, however that needs to be done. Allow for dense residential & retail use. There is so much land that could be easily repurposed and it could flourish in the much more immediate term than several other city projects.

The DIA seems to agree somewhat! Here's the part of their "Illustrative Master Plan" for the Southbank (red boxes are "Redevelopment Opportunities":



Depending on who ultimately buys up the major parcels at RiversEdge and the School Board building (if that relocation ever happens) will be a big piece of the puzzle. The fact that the DIA sees the Delta hotel as a redevelopment opportunity is very interesting, because it's a lot of land if used properly. In the end there's a reason most of the big condo towers ended up on the Southbank instead of elsewhere (save for Berkman).

In my opinion, there has to be a reason to justify getting rid of the parking even if you eliminate the minimums (which I believe they have). That means mass transportation. A half-hourly "BRT" system and a run-down monorail don't deliver on that, and neither will crewed "self-driving" cars. You already don't have to build parking in most of downtown, but residents (and lenders for these projects) have to feel confident that they can meet their daily needs and even most recreational needs without driving, and we haven't figured out how to give them that confidence.

My only justification for reducing the parking requirements, and also instituting parking maximums perhaps, is because I have never seen a structured lot here full or even close. Maybe the tower trio is the exception, but I am referring to the Baptist Health, OneCall, Ameris, Prudential buildings and the nearby Kings Ave lot. Those lots are massive for the size of the Southbank, all being 500+ spaces I believe. Not to mention the under freeway parking that exists, and the on-street parking that is seemingly on every side road. I think there should be some effort to push for parking agreements or exceptions for lots that are adjacent to these parking structures. The office uses here just don't require 3 spaces per 1,000 sf. I also think there should be exceptions on parking for new projects under a certain size in the DT overlay, like they have in many other urban cities.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I don't see how you convince people to demand less parking until JTA has improved urban mass transit.  Is there anyway to just take a route that circulates Downtown and the immediate surrounding areas?  If not, expect people to continue wanting more, not less, parking. 

JTA/City should take a note from St. Augustine.  The have a perimeter parking garage (and talking about adding more) with a FREE shuttle to the historic downtown area.  Same set up at Disney and so many more places.  Folks, this isn't rocket science, just common sense.  Unfortunately, our City leaders have next to none.

[Charles Hunter]

Back in the 70s and 80s, before the Skyway was operational, JTA offered 3 bus-circulator routes in downtown. The first served parking lots on Liberty at the foot of the Mathews Expressway - one was between the State and Union ramps, in the area that is now full of trees. The second crossed the Main Street Bridge and served the Prudential (original building) and Baptist Hospital, and a parking lot on Prudential and Main, next to what was then the JTA headquarters building. Since these started around 1975-76 the were the Red and Blue routes of the Bicentennial-themed "Spirit Special" shuttle. The last route was added a couple of years later down Riverside Avenue to a parking lot under the Fuller Warren - where RAM is now. Since the Bicentennial was now history, the new route was Riverside, and the other two were redesignated Southside (the -bank term wasn't used then) and Downtown (I think, memory hazy). Also, I think JTA was nervous about naming a route "White"!  If memory serves, they were pretty popular. The Plan was to put parking lots around the periphery of downtown, along the major approaches, and have shuttle bus routes, followed by the Skyway in some corridors, to bring people into the core. The shuttle buses (and Skyway) would also allow downtown workers (and the few residents) to move around Downtown, Riverside (Brooklyn), and the Southbank during lunch and other non-commuter hours.

Alas, the Downtown Development Authority (precursor of today's DIA) went off-script and encouraged more garages in the core, making shuttle service to peripheral lots unattractive.

[Jax_Developer]

^ I don't see how you convince people to demand less parking until JTA has improved urban mass transit.  Is there anyway to just take a route that circulates Downtown and the immediate surrounding areas?  If not, expect people to continue wanting more, not less, parking. 

JTA/City should take a note from St. Augustine.  The have a perimeter parking garage (and talking about adding more) with a FREE shuttle to the historic downtown area.  Same set up at Disney and so many more places.  Folks, this isn't rocket science, just common sense.  Unfortunately, our City leaders have next to none.

Hard to convince a majority to do anything locally it seems. But in all seriousness, I believe this to be a case where you just have to live in it to see it. The scooters/e-bikes are honestly a game changer in my opinion compared to connectivity issues of the past.

But more precisely what I'm arguing is that there is currently an immense amount of parking, per acre, in the Southbank and that is completely anecdotal. I can't reference any figure. Just living here, it seems like there is an absurd abundance of parking specifically in this part of town. Plus there is Skyway access.. I have to think if there is a place to start implementing strict parking mins & maxs, its the Southbank. I could see a mini boom occurring here, and I think the opportunity is knocking with RiversEdge, this project and contributing projects nearby.

[jaxlongtimer]

Back in the 70s and 80s, before the Skyway was operational, JTA offered 3 bus-circulator routes in downtown. The first served parking lots on Liberty at the foot of the Mathews Expressway - one was between the State and Union ramps, in the area that is now full of trees. The second crossed the Main Street Bridge and served the Prudential (original building) and Baptist Hospital, and a parking lot on Prudential and Main, next to what was then the JTA headquarters building. Since these started around 1975-76 the were the Red and Blue routes of the Bicentennial-themed "Spirit Special" shuttle. The last route was added a couple of years later down Riverside Avenue to a parking lot under the Fuller Warren - where RAM is now. Since the Bicentennial was now history, the new route was Riverside, and the other two were redesignated Southside (the -bank term wasn't used then) and Downtown (I think, memory hazy). Also, I think JTA was nervous about naming a route "White"!  If memory serves, they were pretty popular. The Plan was to put parking lots around the periphery of downtown, along the major approaches, and have shuttle bus routes, followed by the Skyway in some corridors, to bring people into the core. The shuttle buses (and Skyway) would also allow downtown workers (and the few residents) to move around Downtown, Riverside (Brooklyn), and the Southbank during lunch and other non-commuter hours.

Alas, the Downtown Development Authority (precursor of today's DIA) went off-script and encouraged more garages in the core, making shuttle service to peripheral lots unattractive.

Any significant (and some minor) urban core areas I have been have had urban transit circulators.  Jax seems to be an anomaly today.  Just don't get why we can't implement tried and true solutions to build up a downtown... and this is just one more example.  I bet DIA and JTA hardly talk to each other based on this alone.  Or, neither is smart enough to address it.  Either way, another Downtown failing.

Hard to convince a majority to do anything locally it seems. But in all seriousness, I believe this to be a case where you just have to live in it to see it. The scooters/e-bikes are honestly a game changer in my opinion compared to connectivity issues of the past.

But more precisely what I'm arguing is that there is currently an immense amount of parking, per acre, in the Southbank and that is completely anecdotal. I can't reference any figure. Just living here, it seems like there is an absurd abundance of parking specifically in this part of town. Plus there is Skyway access.. I have to think if there is a place to start implementing strict parking mins & maxs, its the Southbank. I could see a mini boom occurring here, and I think the opportunity is knocking with RiversEdge, this project and contributing projects nearby.

I would not consider the scooters/e-bikes a game changer for much more than males under the age of about 30.  The vast majority of people who are eating out, going to shows and museums, physically limited, not comfortable with the risk of using the devices, etc. are not going to be using these "vehicles" in significant numbers... especially in all types of weather or when required clothing is much more than street casual.  And, I would think it would take maybe thousands of scooters to make a real impact on a vibrant Downtown.  Where would we station all of them and could the streets safely handle that load? 

The Skyway is blocks away from many areas and doesn't run to the depths of Riverside, San Marco, Springfield or the East Side or even close to much of the Northbank.  Some people might also question its safety if the vehicles are unmanned, especially at night.

I think that Jax needs to look at longer hours and more bus headways, at least 7 days x 16+ hours, so people don't have to memorize schedules, wait more than 20 minutes for the next transit or worry they can't return to their starting points because service is shut down for the day.  People today prize simplicity and convenience above all else.

Add it up, and the scooters and Skyway are bit players, in my mind, for what would really be needed to get people to not demand parking Downtown.  The quickest, easiest, most affordable way, for now, is to use buses to get the job done.  Prove out the need, and other solutions like trolleys, etc. might be the ultimate follow ups.

[Jax_Developer]

I think that the scooter/e-bike item is more of an issue here locally. JAX being one of the worse cities for hit & runs, lack of bicycle ROWs, and lack of sidewalk connectivity in the entire country. In Miami, NYC, LA & other dense cities.. you see a lot wider range of people able to use these easier means of transportation which allow for, often, more freedoms than a car in a local environment. The Southbank has a version of this with the Riverwalk.. I think to label these transportation devices to men under 30 is somewhat concerning to hear given the large number of other places which that doesn't seem to be a thing at all. Maybe we can chalk this up to another way crime hinders JAX because I just don't buy that argument.

I also am of the opinion that buses are not going to change the public transit dynamics of a small, hyper focused area. My argument stems from the fact that there needs to be more comprehensive parking criteria in specific parts of town. It is great the downtown overlay exists, but do "we" really think that LaVilla or the Sports District should have the same parking criteria as the Southbank? I don't. For all of the Southbank's shortcomings, it has 3 Skyway stations & some of the largest parking structures in all of JAX. My argument is not for people to not have cars & a place to park.. I am arguing that there is already a TON of parking. Just walk around the area..

When I goto LaVilla, there is an obvious need for more parking with every new development. I just can't be convinced of that in the Southbank. Am I arguing for no parking? No. Im arguing for less.