Developer plans residential tower at former River City Brewery site

[Jax_Developer]

The parking garage is likely a pre-cast fabricated garage, which come in standard sizes. They are much cheaper than integrated parking garages.

[Ocklawaha]

Move it left, move it right, slide it forward or back, I'm just happy it's not another suburban style firetrap!

[Florida Power And Light]

It's Too Much
Certain Attraction Design Appeasement to no avail.
( However..... not too shabby for building up on a COJ Restaurant Lease....)
Just Skip It.
Leave the property " Undeveloped/ non residential "..... after all.... such lands adjacent to the River Front are too valuable to consign to residential.
The Aversion to this concept is telling.

Luckily for me, residence on a half acre Avondale waterfront parcel handy to Downtown'...it's been a great privilege to have outgrown the area...... such future proceedings viewed with casual interested detachment, and often derisive laughter shared with others ....the realization that a move pretty far from here is in the future.

[vicupstate]

I hope the MOSH building could be repurchased into a different museum. This city won't have the money to build one from the ground up. So it's a good opportunity to add or upgrade another cultural project, museum or organization.

I doubt the city would be game for another museum for awhile. Even so, Museums do best when clustered with like attractions. Therefore any new museum would be best placed on the Northbank near the new MOSH. At its current location, MOSH didn't seem to get that much traffic.  Putting a high rise there instead of where proposed, would allow for more step back from the river, which would be better visually, IMO. It would also allow expansion of the Fountain park and a wider Riverwalk.

[thelakelander]

The challenge here is that a skyscraper can be built in any vacant COJ owned lot, assuming there's a market to build one. In the last 20 years, the market hasn't been there. The couple that are proposed (Related, Landing site, Courthouse site) will require a level of public incentives that could fund many cultural opportunities from the ground up.

MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location. I think the one-of-a-kind opportunity with the MOSH facility is that there is a structurally sound cultural facility.

We have several organizations and cultural uses that could possibly benefit from access to a larger existing space and friendly lease deal. Repurposing here, with the connection to Friendship Fountain and the Southbank Riverwalk is a one-of-a-kind opportunity on that end. On the cultural side of things, the city contribution could be a lease-friendly deal and the building (although I'm not sure if COJ or MOSH owns the structure).

As I type this, this scenario is almost a carbon copy situation we experienced with the Haydon Burns Library years ago. What DuPont ended up doing with that structure has been a positive impact for downtown. Back then, a lot of us wanted to tear it down for a group to put up a generic theater and condos. Now its 2023, we still have no downtown theater and we haven't had any condos built in DT since the 2006/07 real estate bust.

So looking back, if we had gone the blow it up route, we'd likely be looking at another parking lot today.

[Tacachale]

I'd also rather they try to find use for the MOSH building rather than creating another parking crater. What kind of amenity could be a fit?

[jaxjags]

Personally, I would like to see an additional art museum. One that would use the larger indoor space and fountain area for more sculpture art. My wife and I do go to the Cummer and DT Modern Art on a regular basis, but believe the area is growing and something could work. Perhaps include a section on the history of music and include a section on Southern Rock. Perhaps a combo of Museum/Gallery. Perhaps Shad Khan or the Jaguars can commission some art as was done at the training center. If Des Moines Iowa can have a multi acre outdoor sculpture garden, Jax can do something artistic with the old museum.

[tufsu1]

MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.

and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.

[vicupstate]

Lake, you make some good points, but let's face it, if Related proceeds at their current site, they are going to ask for and almost certainly get considerable incentives. In fact EVERY residential project including the run of the mill 5 story podium apartments get incentives. Shad Khan would probably donate to a second museum on the Northbank within short distance of MOSH as well. It's true an existing building would be cheaper than a build from the ground up situation. But I think the synergy of two museums (really three if you count the Orleck) within walking distance of each other has considerable value. Seattle, Baltimore, Charleston, SC and Greenville, SC (Heritage Green) are all examples of this. Keep in mind that renovations to Friendship Fountain last about 5 years and it takes another 10 years before the next 'renovation' occurs. Swapping sites for the Related project would still allow a new attraction or an augmentation to Friendship Fountain.  The current Related rendering is just a jarring sight the way the building just soars upward so close to the river's edge.         

[thelakelander]

MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.

and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.

That's a boat load in Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

Lake, you make some good points, but let's face it, if Related proceeds at their current site, they are going to ask for and almost certainly get considerable incentives. In fact EVERY residential project including the run of the mill 5 story podium apartments get incentives.

I'm fine with this. Until there's a market, incentives will be needed on literally every major project downtown. Residential, commercial, entertainment, cultural, etc.

Shad Khan would probably donate to a second museum on the Northbank within short distance of MOSH as well.

That would be great. Then we could use the structure for an additional cultural facility. I know of several organizations and groups with dreams. The building is an opportunity to make one or a few of them come true.

It's true an existing building would be cheaper than a build from the ground up situation. But I think the synergy of two museums (really three if you count the Orleck) within walking distance of each other has considerable value. Seattle, Baltimore, Charleston, SC and Greenville, SC (Heritage Green) are all examples of this.

I agree. However, I don't think all of our focus has to be around making the shipyards something. That alone is a multiple decade thing.

Keep in mind that renovations to Friendship Fountain last about 5 years and it takes another 10 years before the next 'renovation' occurs.

I have no idea why Friendship Fountain has taken so long. Lakeland built a $100 million park in less time. That's a DIA/COJ problem. However, I don't think that COJ and the DIA have to lead all initiatives.

Swapping sites for the Related project would still allow a new attraction or an augmentation to Friendship Fountain.  The current Related rendering is just a jarring sight the way the building just soars upward so close to the river's edge.         

Related will be done before MOSH moves. I think swapping sites is completely unrealistic.

[Ken_FSU]

MOSH is only moving because they were offered a boat load of cash....only if they moved closer to the Jag's investments. Otherwise, they would have renovated and expanded at the existing location.

and by boatload of cash, you mean $5 million - they need at least $80 million for the new building.

That's a boat load in Jacksonville.

$25 million, to be exact. 

$5 million from Shad Khan, yes. 

But you're forgetting the $20 million that was quietly slipped into the CIP by Curry to "lure a cultural attraction to the Shipyards" backslash get MOSH to blow up their plans on the Southbank so Curry could save face with Shad Khan after his convention center and Lot J plans got squashed.

Not to be confused with the $30 million that found its way into the CIP to move the Fairgrounds based on back-alley conversations between Curry, Brian Hughes, and the Jags.

Not to be confused with the $20 million set aside to get the Landing out of the way for Lot J.

That's almost $100 million there alone.

Toss in $50 million for speculative UF something or another, and we're taking a third of a metropolis's annual capital improvement budget being unilaterally funneled into shadowy agreements that the public has little visibility into.

But I digress...

Totally agree that standing up a new cultural attraction at the old MOSH site is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Last thing we need anchoring the south end of the Main Street Bridge is luxury residential. Keep the park front space for the people. A museum and potential restaurant on the park would be the perfect pedestrian friendly compliment to the riverwalk and the park.

I'd personally love to see MOSH 2.0 go in heavy on science, ecology, and local natural history, while standing up (or allowing the historical society) to stand up a proper Jax History museum at the old MOSH site. The history of Jax exhibit is already there, and it'd be a great opportunity to expand to include civil rights, culture, and sports, while leaving the ecology, music, and arts to the other museums.

Civil history kind of feels like a bit of a square peg anyway to what MOSH is envisioning for 2.0.

Helps the river walk. Helps the fountain. Helps the secret restaurant on the back end of Related's tower. Provides synergy with other museums along the Riverwalk/Water Taxi line.

Would just be downright foolish to not look at what other cities have done with their parkfront space and decide to bulldoze for residential.

[vicupstate]

Totally agree that standing up a new cultural attraction at the old MOSH site is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Last thing we need anchoring the south end of the Main Street Bridge is luxury residential. Keep the park front space for the people. A museum and potential restaurant on the park would be the perfect pedestrian friendly compliment to the riverwalk and the park.

I'd personally love to see MOSH 2.0 go in heavy on science, ecology, and local natural history, while standing up (or allowing the historical society) to stand up a proper Jax History museum at the old MOSH site. The history of Jax exhibit is already there, and it'd be a great opportunity to expand to include civil rights, culture, and sports, while leaving the ecology, music, and arts to the other museums.

Civil history kind of feels like a bit of a square peg anyway to what MOSH is envisioning for 2.0.

Helps the river walk. Helps the fountain. Helps the secret restaurant on the back end of Related's tower. Provides synergy with other museums along the Riverwalk/Water Taxi line.

Would just be downright foolish to not look at what other cities have done with their parkfront space and decide to bulldoze for residential.

I have to vehemently disagree that having a high rise tower at the MOSH site would in ANY WAY limit the use of the park by 'regular folks'. To the degree that it would, the CURRENT Related proposal would do that even more so,  as it is just as adjacent to the park as the MOSH site, and consumes a lot more land, and waterfront land at that. A high rise could also reduce the footprint of the MOSH building and give up some land to the park.   

Lake is correct that the timing isn't good, which I thought I mentioned in my first post. But you have to admit that we already have decades of experience of seeing that a museum and the park combined DO NOT create the kind of synergy that is desired. I don't think simply swapping one museum for another is going to change that. Jacksonville is not a tourist mecca and likely never will be.  Even the cities that do draw a lot more tourists still cluster their cultural/museum/tourist sites together. Ideally, that would be the route Jacksonville takes as well. Friendship Fountain would be better off with an expanded park with expanded offerings (playground, shaded rest spots for runners to make it the focal point of the SB Riverwalk, additional fountains, etc.) with adjacent food and beverage amenities such as a food hall. A high rise residence would certainly help support that. Everything surrounding the Fountain is active only during business hours and that is part of the problem.  Having more land would allow for more and different programming as well. 

BTW, the Shipyards IS parkfront and waterfront space. In a ideal situation, JAX shouldn't divide its core of cultural resources.     

[Steve]

So putting aside the future use of MOSH for a sec and regarding Related proposal: Would it be better if they literally swapped the restaurant patio and pool area? I'm thinking that would turn the restaurant to face the street but also with riverfront views since the pool isn't tall.

[thelakelander]

I liked the restaurant in the original proposed location. It better complements the park, the river can still be seen and it's closer to the street. As proposed, I believe this restaurant space is struggle.