Racism & Roads

[jaxlongtimer]

Great column by Mark Woods countering DeSantis's position that interstate construction did not include systemic racism as a planning factor:

A thriving neighborhood before I-95, now a reminder that a road isn't just a road

....Which brings us to the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill signed by President Biden on Monday, a comment from Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, and the reaction from Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis.

Buttigieg was asked if part of that money will be used to address modern-day infrastructure issues that stem from the infrastructure decisions of the past. He said it made sense to try to fix some of the results of the systemic racism in highway design.

This led to DeSantis and others mocking the very premise.

Roads aren't racist, they said, tweeted and guffawed.

"I heard some stuff, some weird stuff from the Secretary of Transportation trying to make this about social issues," DeSantis said. "To me, a road's a road."

When DeSantis went on Fox News, host Tucker Carlson said: "Roads can't be racist anymore than toasters and sectional couches can be racist. They are inanimate objects. They're not alive."

They're right. The actual roads aren't racist. But to pretend that race wasn't a part of the equation that led to America's highways is to do something that seems to be happening a lot lately: Those who talk about preserving history often are really good at ignoring it.

A road's a road. It just happens that when we built a lot of them, they dissected and often decimated certain neighborhoods....

....A road's a road's a road, until all those rides slice up a neighborhood to the point where it loses most of its businesses and 80 percent of its population....

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2021/11/17/ron-desantis-florida-racism-road-highway-construction-jacksonville-sugar-hill/8625898002/?itm_medium=recirc&itm_source=taboola&itm_campaign=internal&itm_content=BelowArticleFeed-FeedRedesign

[Florida Power And Light]

First Coast Expressway ( yea..... Outer beltway)

Disrupting Clay County White Folk, Lake Asbury  pretty good..... and better yet, more significant Dynamic:

White Flight Boulevard

Some day the  Brannon Chaffee First Coast Expressway will be named in honor of a Clay County Attorney and a former FL DOT Director of the same last name.And Mayor John Delaney and Corps of Engineers ( permit ) Head Joe Miller ( who would become, for a curious short period, Mayor Delaney COJ Administration Director) And Former Clay County Planner ( and always, Riversided Avondale resident) Susan Fraser.
Gosh, that would require a Giant roadway sign.......including Delaney " Political Future" Exit/ Dead End Ramp spilling in to the former Game And Fish Commission/ Trust For Public Lands Brannon Chaffee Mitigation Lands ( Will Aberger / Trust For public Lands/ Delaney/ Susan Grandin .... ha! A city office....) -a large portion of the Mitigation area now ......Oak Leaf.
Pitman sold and headed over to St. John's county...... Silver Leaf....

What's the point of the Original post?

Endless Loop.

[BridgeTroll]

Hmmm... a political location or a racist location?  I  am aware of  lily white areas of the country where interstates either divided or worse.. bypassed... to the detriment of the the affected population. No doubt politically more powerful groups got what they wanted... perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

[WarDamJagFan]

Everything is racist. Especially 9A. My goodness. Absolute peak racism.

[marcuscnelson]

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

[acme54321]

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955.  The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits.  If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.

[fieldafm]

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955.  The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits.  If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.

I wasn't alive in 1955.  But consider that this promotional campaign was being used as justification for putting expressways through these 'undesirable' areas.  Going so far as scaring middle and upper class housewives that the maids that are coming into their homes are riddled with disease.   

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/

Seems that the video link is brooken in th e article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A

Taking a step back and examining a more nuanced view of what people were saying during that time, I take great pause at simply scoffing at the notion that racist attitudes didn't play a large part in not only the location of the expressway system, but with also how little consideration was given to the impact on these neighborhoods.

[fieldafm]

Everything is racist. Especially 9A. My goodness. Absolute peak racism.

9A and 9B were built largely by political maneuvering of the landowners along this roadway. Those landowners wanted to open up their property to development, and have reaped huge economic rewards in doing so. More power to them!

But that's a huge apples to oranges comparison to people that were forced out of their homes, and the remaining property owners whose neighborhood around them crumbled... all due to an economic taking through eminent domain without any form of comparative compensation due to the negative externalities that taking brought upon them.

[Sonic101]

P R E A C H Marcus!

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955.  The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits.  If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.

6 miles away from the core means Jax isn't connected to the world? The old airport was the same distance away. Ft. Meyers has been successful with 75 being so far away from it's core. Even St. Augustine is far from 95.

[marcuscnelson]

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955.  The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits.  If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.

Plenty of cities in Europe chose to build their highways around their cities instead of through them. Even Washington DC canceled the bulk of its proposed through-running highways, except for 395, which is largely buried. Now if you're saying that the expressway authority in 1955 wouldn't have made that decision, sure, but that doesn't make it a bad decision.

There's a difference between connecting your city and paving it over, and the latter is a decision we chose to make.

[acme54321]

perhaps you and Mr Woods could point out exactly where I-95 should have gone if it were to pass through Jacksonville...

Easy: it wouldn't. The real answer is that we shouldn't have built a massive expressway through the center of the city at all, let alone multiple. In a sane world, I-95 would have gone perhaps where I-295's East Beltway, or at worst where Southside Boulevard ended up running, and we'd have instead built a dense network of transit that wouldn't rely on everyone buying a car within the city itself. It'd have saved billions in the long run, and from a sustainability standpoint we'd be having way fewer problems.

But of course, white flight is white flight, and what's done is done. The important thing now is correcting the mistakes we've already made, and not making more of them in the future, like what we're about to do with I-95.

The expressway and Fuller Warren Bridge were opened in 1955.  The East Beltway corridor was in BFE back then and Southside Blvd was on the edge of the metro, both way outside the Jacksonville city limits.  If you were trying to make sure your city was connected to the rest of the world in 1955 you wouldn't have put that road out there either.

I wasn't alive in 1955.  But consider that this promotional campaign was being used as justification for putting expressways through these 'undesirable' areas.  Going so far as scaring middle and upper class housewives that the maids that are coming into their homes are riddled with disease.   

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-slum-heart-of-jacksonville/

Seems that the video link is brooken in th e article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFHE3Vvi6A

Taking a step back and examining a more nuanced view of what people were saying during that time, I take great pause at simply scoffing at the notion that racist attitudes didn't play a large part in not only the location of the expressway system, but with also how little consideration was given to the impact on these neighborhoods.

I don't see anywhere that I said that.  I'm sure racism played a major role on the final routing and because that was the path of least resistance.  Those people didn't have the resources to fight it.  I was just suggesting that there may have been other considerations as to why the city at the time would want the roads close to the city center in general and not out in the middle of no where as suggested.

[BridgeTroll]

I wasn't suggesting that racism didn't play a role... nor am I scoffing at the idea... but... I know of plenty of cities or towns or villages in northern tier states that fought tooth and nail for the interstate. They didn't want to be passed by.... Look at the closed businesses and ghost towns on 301 since I-95 or 75 bypassed them. Racist decision?  Probably not... sorry but most interstate run through the center or near the center of town.  The bypasses certainly go around but not the main artery.

Being a southern city racism probably played a role in who got eminent domain preference.

[acme54321]

I wasn't suggesting that racism didn't play a role... nor am I scoffing at the idea... but... I know of plenty of cities or towns or villages in northern tier states that fought tooth and nail for the interstate. They didn't want to be passed by.... Look at the closed businesses and ghost towns on 301 since I-95 or 75 bypassed them. Racist decision?  Probably not... sorry but most interstate run through the center or near the center of town.  The bypasses certainly go around but not the main artery.

Being a southern city racism probably played a role in who got eminent domain preference.

This. 

[BridgeTroll]

I contend that class... or rather... poor folk... was more of a driving factor in route selection.  Jax is a southern city so no doubt racism played a roll but in poor areas devoid of black folks in other areas of the country had the same issues...

Beware eminent domain...

[JPalmer]

Safe to say Red-lined neighborhoods were chosen throughout the US interstate system.  Certainly not endemic to the American South, see I-10's role in LA.

Personally I think just some acknowledgement of Critical Race History would go long way without ever even having to mention the word theory.  While I don't want to talk about "White Fright" and Karen's of today, I don't mind talking about the clearly racist motives surrounding Plecy v Ferguson or the Affordable Housing acts of the 1930's which created the Red-line system in the first place.

Black people were practically barred from participating in the 20th century American dream of owning a home and building wealth and oh by the way they found other uses for these maps as well.