COVID Again Rampant in Jax

[Wacca Pilatka]

As I've said before I'm not anti-vaxx. I do get a little perplexed though when the hint of anything negative regarding vaccines - like the article mentioning potential mutations or documented negative side affects some people have experienced with the vaccines - are automatically stamped with an anti-vaxx label and threated with silence.

Agreed.  I have family members who are terrified to get the vaccine because of a close friend who experienced terrible complications with clotting.  They're highly educated, and two of them are health care workers who have done plenty of research on the vaccine and are  concerned about the mRNA concept in general.  They also each had covid several months ago and theoretically should have antibody protection.  They're also politically diverse.  They don't deserve wanton dismissal as morons and Trump robots who lack critical thinking skills and should be banned from society.

The incredibly incoherent messaging and general lack of humility from public officials (in and during both administrations), sudden shifts in mask rules, and seemingly wanton "essential business" rules that appeared to punish small business and favor large businesses and online retailers all sowed mistrust and (self-defeating) rebellious streaks in plenty of intelligent people.  There's plenty of comically inconsistent situations like malls where the restaurants don't allow sit-down dining but the food court is full of people sitting and eating, or pointlessly theatrical short plexiglas shields that accomplish nothing to stop an aerosol virus going over and around them.  There's a lot of people who aren't virus deniers but think elements of the situation are an effort to divide people and enrich large businesses and big tech companies.  The clumsy censorship from Facebook and Twitter hasn't helped; it hasn't just blocked bad information, it's blocked people who express reasonable concerns and are probably more looking for reassurance than looking to sow discord, and repulsed others.

And frankly, in some venues the sheer volume of messaging is off-putting even when you are pro-vaccine; the family members I'm referring to live in a state where there is a "wear a mask, get the vaccine" poster or billboard about every three paces, to the extent it comes off as Orwellian rather than as a PSA.

I really think these sorts of things, not ignorance, are driving a lot of the resistance to the vaccine.  And we should be having an open, national conversation that affirms and addresses legitimate concerns to try to diminish that resistance, not treating people like morons or censoring them.  Sadly, apparently that's now climactically impossible, and the messaging has been so bad that the damage may be irreversible.

I'm not in any way opposed to the vaccine, but a little compassion and understanding toward those who aren't vaccinated would go a long way, as opposed to browbeating and calling them names (including the equation of being opposed to a new type of vaccine, which some find scary, as being "anti-vaxx," i.e., opposed to all vaccines).  No one ever won someone to their point of view by incessantly calling them an idiot.

[fieldafm]

As I've said before I'm not anti-vaxx. I do get a little perplexed though when the hint of anything negative regarding vaccines - like the article mentioning potential mutations or documented negative side affects some people have experienced with the vaccines - are automatically stamped with an anti-vaxx label and threated with silence.

Agreed.  I have family members who are terrified to get the vaccine because of a close friend who experienced terrible complications with clotting.  They're highly educated, and two of them are health care workers who have done plenty of research on the vaccine and are  concerned about the mRNA concept in general.  They also each had covid several months ago and theoretically should have antibody protection.  They're also politically diverse.  They don't deserve wanton dismissal as morons and Trump robots who lack critical thinking skills and should be banned from society.

The incredibly incoherent messaging and general lack of humility from public officials (in and during both administrations), sudden shifts in mask rules, and seemingly wanton "essential business" rules that appeared to punish small business and favor large businesses and online retailers all sowed mistrust and (self-defeating) rebellious streaks in plenty of intelligent people.  There's plenty of comically inconsistent situations like malls where the restaurants don't allow sit-down dining but the food court is full of people sitting and eating, or pointlessly theatrical short plexiglas shields that accomplish nothing to stop an aerosol virus going over and around them.  There's a lot of people who aren't virus deniers but think elements of the situation are an effort to divide people and enrich large businesses and big tech companies.  The clumsy censorship from Facebook and Twitter hasn't helped; it hasn't just blocked bad information, it's blocked people who express reasonable concerns and are probably more looking for reassurance than looking to sow discord, and repulsed others.

And frankly, in some venues the sheer volume of messaging is off-putting even when you are pro-vaccine; the family members I'm referring to live in a state where there is a "wear a mask, get the vaccine" poster or billboard about every three paces, to the extent it comes off as Orwellian rather than as a PSA.

I really think these sorts of things, not ignorance, are driving a lot of the resistance to the vaccine.  And we should be having an open, national conversation that affirms and addresses legitimate concerns to try to diminish that resistance, not treating people like morons or censoring them.  Sadly, apparently that's now climactically impossible, and the messaging has been so bad that the damage may be irreversible.

I'm not in any way opposed to the vaccine, but a little compassion and understanding toward those who aren't vaccinated would go a long way, as opposed to browbeating and calling them names (including the equation of being opposed to a new type of vaccine, which some find scary, as being "anti-vaxx," i.e., opposed to all vaccines).  No one ever won someone to their point of view by incessantly calling them an idiot.

Thank you. 100% agree!

[Wacca Pilatka]

P.S. no offense whatsoever intended to WarDamJagFan with my comment about the anti-vaxx phrase.  I'm just surprised at how that phrase's meaning has transmogrified recently.

[Tacachale]

As I've said before I'm not anti-vaxx. I do get a little perplexed though when the hint of anything negative regarding vaccines - like the article mentioning potential mutations or documented negative side affects some people have experienced with the vaccines - are automatically stamped with an anti-vaxx label and threated with silence.

Agreed.  I have family members who are terrified to get the vaccine because of a close friend who experienced terrible complications with clotting.  They're highly educated, and two of them are health care workers who have done plenty of research on the vaccine and are  concerned about the mRNA concept in general.  They also each had covid several months ago and theoretically should have antibody protection.  They're also politically diverse.  They don't deserve wanton dismissal as morons and Trump robots who lack critical thinking skills and should be banned from society.

The incredibly incoherent messaging and general lack of humility from public officials (in and during both administrations), sudden shifts in mask rules, and seemingly wanton "essential business" rules that appeared to punish small business and favor large businesses and online retailers all sowed mistrust and (self-defeating) rebellious streaks in plenty of intelligent people.  There's plenty of comically inconsistent situations like malls where the restaurants don't allow sit-down dining but the food court is full of people sitting and eating, or pointlessly theatrical short plexiglas shields that accomplish nothing to stop an aerosol virus going over and around them.  There's a lot of people who aren't virus deniers but think elements of the situation are an effort to divide people and enrich large businesses and big tech companies.  The clumsy censorship from Facebook and Twitter hasn't helped; it hasn't just blocked bad information, it's blocked people who express reasonable concerns and are probably more looking for reassurance than looking to sow discord, and repulsed others.

And frankly, in some venues the sheer volume of messaging is off-putting even when you are pro-vaccine; the family members I'm referring to live in a state where there is a "wear a mask, get the vaccine" poster or billboard about every three paces, to the extent it comes off as Orwellian rather than as a PSA.

I really think these sorts of things, not ignorance, are driving a lot of the resistance to the vaccine.  And we should be having an open, national conversation that affirms and addresses legitimate concerns to try to diminish that resistance, not treating people like morons or censoring them.  Sadly, apparently that's now climactically impossible, and the messaging has been so bad that the damage may be irreversible.

I'm not in any way opposed to the vaccine, but a little compassion and understanding toward those who aren't vaccinated would go a long way, as opposed to browbeating and calling them names (including the equation of being opposed to a new type of vaccine, which some find scary, as being "anti-vaxx," i.e., opposed to all vaccines).  No one ever won someone to their point of view by incessantly calling them an idiot.

For some people, sympathy and explanation will work. But there are a lot of politicians and figures out there, especially right wingers and the traditional anti-vaxxers (who are not all right wingers), who are out there purposefully sewing misinformation. No amount of compassion and understanding is going to fight that.

[Wacca Pilatka]

^ I hear you, but I'm talking about talking human being to human being, not to politicians or to Jenny McCarthy.  Too often the animus intended toward some of the figures you're describing is being directed toward normal people with reasonable fears or skepticism, and that's causing them to draw lines in the sand about this vaccine.

The toxicity of society has been bad enough lately without a virus that causes us all to look at each other as potential disease vectors rather than people.  It just hardens everybody.  So can interacting electronically rather than in person, of course.

Too much of the public AND private message to the vaccine-hesitant has boiled down to "Listen to us; we're better than you.  Idiot."  And that needs to change if we're going to make real progress.

Thankful that this venue is always one of respectful disagreement and reasoned discourse!

[Ken_FSU]

No one ever won someone to their point of view by incessantly calling them an idiot.

Good call out. You're right, Wacca.

I mentioned it in a previous post, but this is a really valid point that I'm personally guilty of more than I should be on this topic.

It's an emotional topic that I feel really strongly about - having seen loved ones die and too many friends hospitalized from this virus - but ultimately name calling does do more harm than good and has a way of undermining even the soundest of arguments.

It's a slippery slope too. Starts with a casual name call. Then you split a few topics in half for dissenting opinions. Next thing you know, you're getting booted from coffee shops for contesting the refill policy and distributing press releases about your 800,000th message board post.

Obviously, there's a difference on the idiot scale between a medical professional nervous about still-emerging mRNA technology or someone reluctant to get vaccinated because of family history of blood clots versus the guy who thinks the government is trying to trojan horse a microchip into his bloodstream so he can manipulate him via 5G or the woman who posts things on Facebook like, "Johnson and Johnson can't even get sunscreen right, and they want us to take their vaccine?!?"

I've got my own opinions on how heavily the scale is weighed in one direction, but in general, generalizations suck.

Thanks for the check.

[Wacca Pilatka]

^ Ken, you're a good, thoughtful man, and understand emotions running high on the subject for sure.  And for what it's worth, always enjoy your posts on many topics on this forum.  No intent to put you down, now or ever.  (Or to defend the more paranoid cases of resistance that you're describing.  I know what you mean, and that's why I hang out here for quality online conversation.)

[Ken_FSU]

^ Ken, you're a good, thoughtful man, and understand emotions running high on the subject for sure.  And for what it's worth, always enjoy your posts on many topics on this forum.  No intent to put you down, now or ever.  (Or to defend the more paranoid cases of resistance that you're describing.  I know what you mean, and that's why I hang out here for quality online conversation.)

Right back at ya, buddy!

Zero offense taken!

There's too much counterproductive name calling and blanket generalization in the world as is.

We're better than that   

[jaxlongtimer]

Points noted regarding vaccine concerns, valid or not.  What I share with the unvaccinated I talk to is that nothing is risk free.  We all walk or drive even though every day people are killed driving or walking.  It comes down to probabilities.  Over 4 billion vaccines have been administered.  A very tiny percent have an adverse reaction of any consequence.  Compare that to the many times higher probability of much more serious consequences of COVID 19.  On this basis, you would "place your bet" every time on the vaccines.

One exception would be a very few who may have a known medical condition that would possibly change the probabilities.  But, those same people, too, could be much more at risk with COVID than the vaccine.

There are never any guarantees in life.  It really comes down to assessing risks and selecting the least risky option.

As to ever changing messaging, we are trying to hit a moving target.  Further, this is a new "species" for scientists and health professionals, so, to some degree, they are "learning as they go."  At this point, you also have a game changing variant that is much more aggressive than prior ones so it makes total sense to ramp things up again.

No doubt many may have stories about vaccine reactions.  But they pale in comparison to the stories about COVID.  I don't many people. regardless of their position on vaccines, that don't know one or more people that have died from COVID.  I don't know anyone who has a like story about vaccines.  Some people having chills, fever or cramps, usually after the second shot, seems to be the most typical vaccine symptoms I hear about.  But they report them being gone between 12 hours and 4 days.  None have gone to a hospital.  Not nearly the same story with most COVID patients.

[Snaketoz]

Points noted regarding vaccine concerns, valid or not.  What I share with the unvaccinated I talk to is that nothing is risk free.  We all walk or drive even though every day people are killed driving or walking.  It comes down to probabilities.  Over 4 billion vaccines have been administered.  A very tiny percent have an adverse reaction of any consequence.  Compare that to the many times higher probability of much more serious consequences of COVID 19.  On this basis, you would "place your bet" every time on the vaccines.

One exception would be a very few who may have a known medical condition that would possibly change the probabilities.  But, those same people, too, could be much more at risk with COVID than the vaccine.

There are never any guarantees in life.  It really comes down to assessing risks and selecting the least risky option.

As to ever changing messaging, we are trying to hit a moving target.  Further, this is a new "species" for scientists and health professionals, so, to some degree, they are "learning as they go."  At this point, you also have a game changing variant that is much more aggressive than prior ones so it makes total sense to ramp things up again.

No doubt many may have stories about vaccine reactions.  But they pale in comparison to the stories about COVID.  I don't many people. regardless of their position on vaccines, that don't know one or more people that have died from COVID.  I don't know anyone who has a like story about vaccines.  Some people having chills, fever or cramps, usually after the second shot, seems to be the most typical vaccine symptoms I hear about.  But they report them being gone between 12 hours and 4 days.  None have gone to a hospital.  Not nearly the same story with most COVID patients.

So true jlt.  My daughter is always giving me the, "I have a friend who knows someone who had a bad reaction".  I can guarantee the percentage of people who have actually had bad reactions to the vaccine is nowhere near the number of people who have gotten sick, died, transmitted the virus to others, lost work time, and have clogged our healthcare system.  I may sound callous, but to Hell with those offended by being called antivaxers.  That's what you are if you let a few cases of bloodclots, fever, and sickness keep you from getting us over this pandemic.  I bet there are more bad reactions to facelifts, root canals, boob jobs than there is to the Covid vaccine.  Over 160 million Americans have done their part.    How many of those got bloodclots?  How many died?  Total rubbish! Getting the vaccine is nowhere near the danger of you driving from Mandarin to Orange Park on the Buckman bridge.

[MusicMan]

My mother in law, a hard core conservative Repub, had a bad reaction, sick for a whole day. But she is alive, and ready for travel. She is urging everyone to get the damn vaccine.

[Lunican]

Anyone having multiple chronic conditions + diseases should be getting the vaccine.  Has nothing to do w/politics.

Delta is putting perfectly healthy people in the hospital. I know this thread has been very frustrating for you but you need to update your advice based on changing conditions.

[jaxlongtimer]

Unfortunately, we did it!  The greater Jacksonville area and Nassau county are now #1 in the nation in the following COVID metrics, sadly. 
Clearly, a correlation between vaccination rates and cases proving the vaccines make a difference.

Meanwhile, we have a governor who is in total denial regarding the current outbreak adding to the hesitancy many have for getting the vaccine and, thus, exacerbating the problem further.

....The greater Jacksonville area, which led the state and nation in per capita spread last week, also saw its largest-ever one-week increase, reaching 8,308 new cases. Nassau County -- which led the CDC's list for the highest level of community transition in metro counties in America last week -- added 810 new cases, which is a rate of 908.6 cases per 100,000 population -- up sharply from last week.....

....The state's rate of coronavirus tests coming back positive continued rising, reaching 18.1%. Jacksonville's positivity rate was 26.9% and Bradford, Clay, Flagler, Nassau, Putnam and Union counties are even higher.....

....On a per-capita basis, Florida now has more people hospitalized than any other state....

....The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and local leaders continue to stress that vaccinations are the key to pulling out of the pandemic. Currently, more than 11.7 million Floridians have had at least one dose, or 61% of residents 12 and older.

Locally, 52% in Duval County have had at least one dose of the vaccine. At 65%, St. Johns County is the only local community that exceeds the state average for vaccinations. Nassau is at 54%, Jacksonville is at 52%, Clay is at 45%, while Baker, Bradford, Columbia and Putnam counties are at 40% or below.....

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/07/30/florida-jacksonville-show-biggest-one-week-jump-in-covid-19-cases-ever/

[BridgeTroll]

The governor is not in total denial... what... specifically... would you have him do?  Mandatory masks?  Mandatory vaccination?  Close the bars and restaurants?  C'mon JLT... specifics...

[jaxlongtimer]

The governor is not in total denial... what... specifically... would you have him do?  Mandatory masks?  Mandatory vaccination?  Close the bars and restaurants?  C'mon JLT... specifics...

I say "denial" because, not only will he not consider various mandates, but he won't let local governments, agencies, school boards or the private or institutional sector impose their own mandates because he doesn't see a problem that's worthy of it.  He rails against "big government" telling everyone else what to do but I guess it doesn't apply if it is something he favors. 

In one example, he is fighting the Feds/CDC over their regulations for the cruise industry in court while that same industry actually welcomes some of the CDC-type guidelines like mandating vaccinations for their passengers and crew.  But, DeSantis has prohibited that thus negating his "support" for the industry.  Norwegian Cruise Lines is actually suing the State over it.

Likewise, prohibiting local schools and governments from mandating in their communities based on their local situation is denying that the problem could be much worse for some than others.  He has also refused to release daily updates on COVID because he has said its not meaningful indicating, again, a denial of its seriousness and the need for the public to know just how bad it is.

Check out some of his quotes this past week at a political event in Utah too.  He is mimicking Trump and sounding like COVID is all behind us.  He may endorse vaccines but he is talking out of both sides of his mouth and trying to have his cake and eat it to.  That sows confusion and distrust, is harmful and has contributed, greatly, to the low vaccination rates in this state.