Riverfront Jacksonville: $1.1 billion Master Plan

[thelakelander]

Even if a fix were in on the convention center thing (I really don't understand the hesitancy to put an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt), there's still one problem. Why would Hyatt's ownership buy into a jail location and give up their first right of refusal on the old City Hall Annex site? Anything related to convention/exhibition space that doesn't involve helping their struggling property survive would not make much sense.

[Steve]

It seems like Boyer really doesn't like the 220 E Bay site. In some ways I see her point* (we'll get to the asterisk in a second):

- The 220 E Bay site gives you a max floor plate of about 80-90k SqFt. If you combine with 330 E Bay, you can get about 210-240SqFt. But, that's about all she wrote and you're not expanding that without major work. I suppose you could demolish the historic buildings at Bay and Newnan (which I disagree with), then you'd get to somewhere between 325k and 350k if you ran it all the way to Bay and Ocean.

- the site she previously mentioned (Hyatt Garage/Old Daniel Building with the East lot (Assuming you take down the ramp to Independent/Water Street since money is apparently free with all of these proposals gives you a max floor plate of about 200-210 SqFt. If you could somehow work with JEA to move the electrical station across the street and combine with the parking lot, that gets you to about 300 SqFt. This also assumes you'd close Independent at the Main Street Bridge or do something elevated. It does not include demolishing the historic buildings at Newnan and Bay.

- Assuming both the Jail and Police Memorial Building move, that site could get you a total of 520-550 SqFt. This also assumes you finish demolishing the now useless Hart Bridge Ramps connecting Forsyth and Adams. Again, I'm assuming you're moving the PMB because if it's just the jail then it REALLY makes no sense.

So....I see her point*. a 500k SqFt Convention Center is a really nice size for Jacksonville. It's not connected to the Hyatt, but she's probably thinking if you could "skywalk" the thing (which I'm not a huge fan of because it gets pedestrians off the streets) then you have it connected. Additionally, at some point we will have to bite the bullet and move the Jail/PMB or spend money on a large scale renovation. Finally, it does attempt to split the difference on having the convention center in the core vs. the sports complex. From there Laura St/JWJ Park is easily walkable and APR is 1/4 mile (not a bad walk either depending on weather). Combine that with the concepts discussed at the Shipyards property, then it could make a really cool space.

*Now for the asterisk: This plan would cost at LEAST $1B. I'm assuming the new Jail/Police HQ is about $500M of that. The other issue is I'm not sure Jacksonville is in the ballgame of $500k SqFt Centers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_United_States

You're certainly playing with the big boys if you get into that market, and obviously you don't have to build all 500k SqFt at one time; you can grow into it. Additionally, everything else has to go right in order to do it, and the "everything" else is also another big check.

It just seems like a REALLY expensive plan personally.

[Ken_FSU]

Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

[Steve]

Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

Probably not. They'll just ask the city to subsidize the bejesus out of the rest of it

[thelakelander]

It seems like Boyer really doesn't like the 220 E Bay site. In some ways I see her point* (we'll get to the asterisk in a second):

- The 220 E Bay site gives you a max floor plate of about 80-90k SqFt. If you combine with 330 E Bay, you can get about 210-240SqFt. But, that's about all she wrote and you're not expanding that without major work. I suppose you could demolish the historic buildings at Bay and Newnan (which I disagree with), then you'd get to somewhere between 325k and 350k if you ran it all the way to Bay and Ocean.

- the site she previously mentioned (Hyatt Garage/Old Daniel Building with the East lot (Assuming you take down the ramp to Independent/Water Street since money is apparently free with all of these proposals gives you a max floor plate of about 200-210 SqFt. If you could somehow work with JEA to move the electrical station across the street and combine with the parking lot, that gets you to about 300 SqFt. This also assumes you'd close Independent at the Main Street Bridge or do something elevated. It does not include demolishing the historic buildings at Newnan and Bay.

- Assuming both the Jail and Police Memorial Building move, that site could get you a total of 520-550 SqFt. This also assumes you finish demolishing the now useless Hart Bridge Ramps connecting Forsyth and Adams. Again, I'm assuming you're moving the PMB because if it's just the jail then it REALLY makes no sense.

So....I see her point*. a 500k SqFt Convention Center is a really nice size for Jacksonville. It's not connected to the Hyatt, but she's probably thinking if you could "skywalk" the thing (which I'm not a huge fan of because it gets pedestrians off the streets) then you have it connected. Additionally, at some point we will have to bite the bullet and move the Jail/PMB or spend money on a large scale renovation. Finally, it does attempt to split the difference on having the convention center in the core vs. the sports complex. From there Laura St/JWJ Park is easily walkable and APR is 1/4 mile (not a bad walk either depending on weather). Combine that with the concepts discussed at the Shipyards property, then it could make a really cool space.

*Now for the asterisk: This plan would cost at LEAST $1B. I'm assuming the new Jail/Police HQ is about $500M of that. The other issue is I'm not sure Jacksonville is in the ballgame of $500k SqFt Centers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_United_States

You're certainly playing with the big boys if you get into that market, and obviously you don't have to build all 500k SqFt at one time; you can grow into it. Additionally, everything else has to go right in order to do it, and the "everything" else is also another big check.

It just seems like a REALLY expensive plan personally.

I get the space constraints but Jax doesn't need a 500k square feet exhibition hall facility and won't within most of our lifetimes. You should be able to get a second floor exhibition hall of around 100 - 105k square feet on the city hall annex site, assuming it abuts the Hyatt's convention level. Consider it something that will give you a +20 year affordable solution to the issue.  The other ideas are for things so far out of Jax's market and affordability that they will take decades and a cool billion to materialize into white elephants.

[jaxlongtimer]

The first problem with all this "planning" is that it seems to mostly come down to decisions by two people, Curry and Boyer.  And, it's becoming clearer that they are in way over their heads with spaghetti for a "plan" given so many developers and others playing on the same field and ever-changing "visions."  Why should the fate of all of Downtown be decided in this manner?  Where is the community, agency and expert-wide process, collaboration, input and transparency in developing a master plan that balances all interests, perspectives and resources?

It looks like Atkins at least tried to balance some anticipated feedback (e.g. re: greenspace, resiliency, meeting space, etc.) into his proposal even though he was working "behind the scenes" to put it together.

We seem to have not learned our lessons from JEA and Lot J and appear to be headed toward repeat controversies and, ultimately, chaotic outcomes.

Before we consider any "plans" we should nail down an appropriate process for developing and implementing them.  I have concluded that DIA, as currently configured, is not the vehicle to get this done.  Something new needs to take its place.

[marcuscnelson]

No mention of the "gotta have" U2C?  I thought it was going to be the key to development Downtown    but this suggests it's not all that important. 

In fact, in the images showing the Skyway (to the far left), it shows no ramp down to Bay Street going toward the Stadium.  What if we repurposed the $247 million in U2C funding toward the infrastructure needs for this type of plan?  Seems it would be a much better investment.

You can't ramp the Skyway down Bay without blocking either Hogan, Laura or Bread and Board Provisions and VyStar's new Bread and Burger breezeway. The DIA also won't let them ramp down Hogan Street, which would block the Emerald Trail project and interfere with Landing redevelopment plans. This is something that JTA has not figured out how to address yet and why some have mentioned exploring silly ideas like using elevators.

Is there any possibility JTA could acquire part of the parking lot next to Hogan street, and bring the guideway down there? Maybe stretch it just enough to connect at the intersection of Hogan and relocated Independent Drive?

[Ken_FSU]

From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

After a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

[Downtown Osprey]

My prediction: This proposal (like countless others over the years) will go through the ringer and ultimately not happen. City Officials will once again take a trip to another city to see how they 'transformed' their downtown and in 2022 we will get a fresh new set of renderings! Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

[landfall]

Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

[landfall]

Mark Long
@APMarkLong
Jaguars will unveil new plans tomorrow for developing downtown Jax, which will include a standalone football facility — the one Urban Meyer pretty much demanded — and a five-star hotel. It will not even mention the failed Lot J development

[Ken_FSU]

https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

[jaxjaguar]

City Officials will once again take a trip to another city to see how they 'transformed' their downtown and in 2022 we will get a fresh new set of renderings! Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

The thing that's so dumb about this is they really can just drive a couple of hours and check out Jacksonvilles neighbors. Orlando, Miami and to a lesser extent Tampa and St Pete have gone through huge changes in the last decade. Downtown Orlando is barely recognizable compared to 10 years ago. The Brickell area of Miami is also massively improved. Orlando is a great example of getting as many residential units downtown as quickly as possible. Brickell is a great example of building up mixed use buildings and shopping / entertainment and combining it with monorail, bike and bus infrastructure.

Every city I visit, I'm blown away by how far behind downtown Jacksonville is and how so little has changed in 25 years compared to other cities. They all also have at least 2-3 unique things to entertain tourists. There's really no compelling reason to visit Jacksonvilles downtown area and stay if you're from another city / state.
The art museums are ok, but nothing really stands out that's a must see other than cummer... Which isn't in the core. 
Mosh is so outdated and small it's like visiting a time capsule. 
There's no connected shopping.   
There's barely a connected bar area. 
The convention spaces are the smallest and worst in the state. Daytona and Jacksonville shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, yet they have just as good of a space. 
The hotels are all disconnected. Unless you're visiting a specific office building for a work trip, good luck feeling safe walking to anything afterwards. 
No movie theater, escape room, bowling, mini golf or anything of the like to entertain families. 
Other than memorial park, none of the parks are well maintained or contain anything unique to draw in people. Friendship fountain was cool for about a year after it's renovation and then immediately fell into disrepair and has been basically a stagnant pool for a decade. 
The over abundance of soulless ground level parking lots and for business use only garages sucks the life out of entire sections of the core. 
I could go on and on.   
 
Sorry I just needed to vent. I've been a member of this site for so long and it's soul crushing how horribly managed my home town is.

[FlaBoy]

From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

After a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

Of all the dumb demolitions at this point, the old City Hall Annex takes the cake. There was no reason to demolish that building and not provide the opportunity for an adaptive reuse and then to not think through the right of first refusal for the Hyatt is unconscionable. To add injury to insult, the city is still dealing with insurance claims and lawsuits due to the damage the explosion caused in nearby buildings downtown.

[landfall]

From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

After a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

Its pathetic on all fronts.

Spandrel say nothing for a year and a half, yet as soon as renderings of something else come out, suddenly they panic and pipe up just incase we've forgotten they exist, and it turns out they still have their finger up their asses anyway. Even worse the DIA is prepared to wait on them.

Get them out and start fresh.

No wonder this Downtown is one of the worst if not thee in America with such non existent urgency. Some of the people running Downtown wouldn't be fit for a small town on a prairie.