Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[thelakelander]

If any one on City Council opposes the deal or wants it significantly restructured at this point, there's an easy solution: Vote No.

The deal is what it is at this point.

Based on what I know at this point, I'd vote no. The numbers should be based on the actual cost of what's proposed. This is a $200-$250 million project. Not a $450 million one.

[fieldafm]

I liked Bateh's presentation. He made some salient points on why the deal should be either radically modified, or scrapped and started over. His estimate of this project actually being worth about $290mm really made me think that this budget is bloated on purpose to get the city to essentially foot the whole bill while "only paying half"

I REALLY liked Councilwoman DeFoor's question about whether or not Cordish would share the Pro Forma. "No, we are not willing to share that"... That stunned me. That's a soundbyte if ever I head one come out of a city council meeting.

Hmmm, its like this website hasn't raised this question before.  This is about as best you could get with calling the $450mm price tag a lie, without actually saying it's a flat, bloated scame

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/midtown-tampa-what-500-million-gets-you-in-tampa/

$191 per SF. Plug $200 per SF into the Lot J numbers  and you get .....

Apartments, hotel rooms and retail spaces cost more to construct than what are basically blank floorplates with some inexpensive partitions, different sprinkler and plubming requirements and one or two restroom banks per floor.  JEA's building is pretty significantly value-engineered. Mixed use residential/retail/structured parking is more like $260-375 per sq ft (depending on how high end you get) at today's construction prices.

That said, I'm the first one to admit that the Lot J and the previous ampitheater/practice field numbers look inflated... even given that Lot J numbers likely include retail fit out costs as the Jags/Cordish will be joint operators in some way of at least the larger retail uses.

^^ Mid-rise apartments are mostly stick-built, not steel and concrete are they not? Lower ceilings too.

The mixed use building (residential and retail) w/ structured parking that will replace the Doro building, one block away from Lot J, is going to pencil out around $265/sq ft. That's a pretty basic structure architecturally (not a complaint, just reality).  If finishes were nicer, that could balloon to $270+/sq ft. Better facade treatments, then more cost is added.  Some of the nicer (speaking to architecture and amenities) buildings in West Palm Beach or Midtown Atlanta are certainly eclipsing the $300/sq ft mark. If the developer paid for fit out of the operating businesses (likely to occur at Lot J) within the project, that is easily another $50/sq ft. Add in some kind of fancy outdoor amenities, stage, sound and lighting systems... figure another $20-30/sq ft.

[CityLife]

^I'll rehash the post I made in that thread to provide further examples of the cost not adding up (though many aren't as apples to apples as the Tampa project). I was able to find all these examples of projects in Atlanta and their costs during part of a lunch break.


-Phase 1 of Midtown Union has an estimated construction cost of $410 million. Construction is currently underway for a 26 story, 600k square foot office building, an 18 story residential building with 355 units, a 12-story 205-room hotel, and 30k square feet of retail space, and 1,909 parking spaces. Architecture is substantially better than Lot J.

https://www.coopercarry.com/projects/midtown-union/


-1105 West Peachtree Plaza in Midtown Atlanta has an estimated cost of $530 million for a 32-story, 675k square foot Class A office building, 178 room hotel, and 64 condo's. Substantially more expensive architectural and structural costs.

http://1105westpeachtree.com/


-Next lets look at the redevelopment of Phipps Plaza at an estimated cost of $300 million. It includes a 150 room Nobu hotel with rooftop pool, and conference center and Nobu restaurant. As well as a 13-story 350k square foot office building and 3-story parking garage, along with a 90k square foot Life Time Fitness with rooftop pool and beach club. Architecture exceeds Lot J quality. Construction costs are more expensive being built on a raised podium.

https://19ecc05a05d7c6bd5508-fe453cfe00977a743e98d480a2f68fee.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/One%20Phipps%20Plaza%2010-15-20%20with%20web%20link%20E.pdf


-Norfolk Southern's new headquarters is estimated at $575 million. This includes 750k square foot of class A office space in two towers. Architecture is on a completely different level than Lot J and cost includes full interior buildout.

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/3/27/18283406/norfolk-southerns-hq-midtown-cousins-properties



-The Interlock Atlanta is a $450 million mixed-use complex with 200k square feet of office, 105k square feet of retail, 145 room hotel, and 367 multi-family units.

[Ken_FSU]

The amendment to remove the $65 million breadbox loan fails 14-5.

I think this gives us our first real indication of where the votes may be.

[marcuscnelson]

Any idea who the No votes were?

[Ken_FSU]

Any idea who the No votes were?

Hazouri, Carlucci, DeFoor, Garrett Dennis, and Al Ferraro.

[jaxlongtimer]

Some excerpts from the Times Union's live blog on the City Coucil Lot J meeting:

Nate Monroe
@NateMonroeTU

Council member Ju'Coby Pittman is deploying an insulting argument that people are against this because they simply don't have all the information the council does (not mentioning she heard from a well-informed expert just a few hours ago who raised major issues over the deal).

It's clear that most members of the Council are in over their heads on understanding the deal as is and what it should be.  At a minimum, they really should be vetting this with the assistance of experts whispering in their ears as this moves forward.  Also working against the Council is the pressure to vote now instead of later.  Carlucci and DeFoor are right, this whole thing should be taken offline and professionally renegotiated by City (hired) experts.

The Jags have Harden and Lamping, the long term principal negotiators for the Jags.  As such, they are intimately familiar with the issues and details giving them an upper hand over the Johnny-come-lately City Council members who are months or years behind in understanding this agreement.  You can see that the Council members are partially relying on Harden and team for guidance on the issues.  Let me just say, Harden doesn't always lay all his cards on the table so they should be careful doing this.  This is why the Council should punt for now.

[thelakelander]

Most of the council is in over their heads. Everyone is worried about lease extensions and breadbox loans. However, they are missing or totally overlooking that its not a $450 million project anymore. So this really isn't a 50-50 partnership. The development number is seriously bloated to make the appearance of this still being a $450 million project when its closer to $250 million. So the city's contribution should be in the range of $125 million.  They could really use that proforma that everyone else has to submit, that Cordish refuses to share.

[jaxlongtimer]

19 member Council now negotiating legal details.  Finding potential loopholes and unprotected scenarios as they delve into the agreement.  Harden is offering on-the-spot legal advice.  Shows how poorly this process is proceeding.

Only thing I agree with the Jags on is this is no way to negotiate an agreement.  The Council is not going to get what they think they are getting this way.

Unbelievable what the Curry administration has done.  Definitely gross incompetence and/or favored treatment to the Jags.  Only sure thing is, even with all the amendments to this agreement, the taxpayers will be taken to the cleaners in the current deal.  Just like the pension plan and the failed JEA deal.

Need a 2 for 1 deal:  Remove Curry and Trump from office at the same time!

[marcuscnelson]

Sigh... what a mess. Just a corrupt, disgusting fraud of a mess.

Unbelievable what the Curry administration has done.  Definitely gross incompetence and/or favored treatment to the Jags.  Only sure thing is, even with all the amendments to this agreement, the taxpayers will be taken to the cleaners in the current deal.  Just like the pension plan and the failed JEA deal.

Need a 2 for 1 deal:  Remove Curry and Trump from office at the same time!

The difference is that Trump has less than two weeks. Curry has more than two years.

[thelakelander]

An amendment by CM Dennis just passed 19-0. $12 million will be provided to the Eastside. $2 million in 2021 by the Jags. $500k a year for 20 years, starting in 2025 that will be split 50/50 by the Jags and Cordish. A 7 member board, with 4 members from the Eastside will be establish to determine how the funds will be invested within the community.

[Charles Hunter]

Does this $5 million from the City come from the existing (proposed) Lot J amount, or is it additional City funds?

[thelakelander]

Any idea who the No votes were?

Hazouri, Carlucci, DeFoor, Garrett Dennis, and Al Ferraro.

Becton just said that he's a no vote if nothing changes by Tuesday night.

[Ken_FSU]

What a slog.

10.5 hours.

Passed for a final vote on Tuesday.

No's are looking to be Carlucci, DeFoor (she passed it to a final vote, but I have a hard time believing she's going to support it), Ferraro, now Becton, and possibly Hazouri.

Dennis seems to be leaning yes, Jackson seems like she's on the fence pending more details on debt capacity.

Feels like it's got the votes, but it's gonna be closer than I thought.

If I'm Vegas, I'm shifting the over/under on yes votes to 13.5.

[Ken_FSU]

P.S. If the Jags do skim $200 million off the top, Paul Harden deserves half. Almost comical to see half of City Council openly asking him by name how they should vote on each amendment.