The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020

[CityLife]

Question:

Are there other examples of Four Seasons in similar areas of other cities? Ie, within easy walking distance of extreme blight & poverty?

This seems like it would be pursued well after Lot J is finished, and is being presented now as a carrot to get city council & public approval for Lot J incentives.

Great question Bill. I've been skeptical about the market feasibility of a Four Season since Khan first mentioned it and agree that it's a shrewd move to sway public opinion.

The only Four Seasons hotel locations in Florida are (Cheapest price of rooms in quotes):
-Palm Beach-A luxury alternative to Florida's most expensive hotel, The Breakers. Possibly Florida's second most expensive hotel. It's already booked up all winter at well over $1k a night and even spring dates are $1k a night.
-Orlando-A beautiful property close to Disney and other parks/attractions. ($700 a night)
-Miami Beach (Surf Club)-Famous historic hotel that now has one of America's best chef's (Thomas Keller) key restaurants ($720 a night)
-Miami-Brickell ($396 a night)

Four Seasons private residences in Florida:

-Ft. Lauderdale oceanfront
-Brickell-same location as hotel
-Surf Club Miami Beach-same location as hotel
-Orlando-same location as hotel

There's not even a Four Seasons in Naples or Sarasota, where there would be a significantly stronger market than Downtown Jacksonville. Nor is there one in Tampa, St. Pete, or 30A-also better markets/destinations. Downtown Jax has potential to be a cool place (especially for younger people), but it will NEVER be a luxury housing or hotel destination. Or is Khan intending to extract so much in incentives from Jax that he can offer Four Seasons amenities, dining, and accommodations at Marriott prices?

I've been a lobbyist on development projects for a billionaire and the world's largest private equity firm. With clients like that you have to be particularly sensitive with what you show the public, knowing that local politicians know you have tons of money to spend on projects and will extract countless concessions. We would never show anything to the public that we were not 100% committed to developing. If Khan is going to dangle a Four Seasons out there and show very attractive renderings as bait to push Lot J to the finish line, the City should make him put his money where his mouth is and look at the incentive package together. If he isn't able to complete the Four Seasons in a certain time period, they should make him pay a portion of Lot J incentives back.  Make him put cash or a surety bond in escrow until he completes the Four Seasons, and if he doesn't deliver the City gets some of it's Lot J money back.

I'm all for giving Khan reasonable incentives for viable projects, but at some point the City needs to get some backbone and get some concessions from Khan. It doesn't feel like Jax's leaders are negotiating on behalf of it's taxpayers interests right now...

[thelakelander]

Berkman II and San Marco Publix are 16 and 20 years in the making, and still folks are waiting.......

Both of these projects are examples of things that would have been built over a decade ago if public funds covered their financing gaps.

[minder]

I totally get the arguments against Lot J from a public incentives perspective, but I have a harder time wrapping my head around the continued narrative that the Jags aren't committed to Jacksonville. I totally respect the City Council for performing their due diligence in terms of viability, but there's something to be said for the fact that Shad Khan and Cordish have enough faith in the Jacksonville market to float and privately finance huge portions of things like the proposed Jacksonville Live! district and a Four Seasons/medical center at the Shipyards.

Who else is showing that same level of faith in our market?

Shad Khan has fielded a dreadful football team, and bungled a lot of communication in regards to things like the London game, but if I was the Jags, I'd be a little insulted by the "what's to stop Shad Khan from moving the team in 2029" talk from certain City Council members and the demands for a lease extension based on the Lot J project. Wayne Weaver trusted Shad Khan enough to sell him the franchise without a no-move clause. The penalty to break the lease and move the team to Los Angeles would have been a rounding error for the guy, and he would have made billions. I've got no issue exercising that same trust in the Jags, if we do move forward with any of these projects. NFL (and Jacksonville) precedent is to tie the lease extension to the stadium upgrades, which genuinely are needed for one of the NFL's oldest stadiums.

Do people really think that the Jags have an evil plan to pump $200 million into the first phase of Lot J, and $300 million into a Four Seasons, only to abandon the market in 8 years? That's a pretty shitty evil plan.

I also don't think it's reasonable to suggest that the Four Seasons thing is imagined by the Jags. Shad Khan has been ruffling hoteliers' feathers for years talking about how he wants to bring a luxury hotel to the riverfront, he owns a Four Seasons in Toronto, and he's been going back and forth with the DIA on it for years under the assumption it would be a Four Seasons. I don't think a guy who takes Edgewood Bakery to court over a few hundred thousand dollars is going to be dumping millions of dollars and years of life into Four Seasons renders just to trick the DIA into giving him a $12.5 million REV grant.

Nor does said gentleman seem the type to build a Four Seasons with the intention of flipping it and abandoning the market.

When we can't even get developers to commit to building mid-rise residential on the river, I'm not sure what developer or investor is going to swoop in and buy a Four Seasons Jacksonville anyway.

100% agree with getting the best deal we can as a city, or turning down the deal altogether if we don't feel it's the right investment, but it really is frustrating to see certain City Council members poisoning the well in terms of the discussion and making it more antagonistic then it needs to be with the baseless conspiracies about the Jags lack of commitment to the market.

Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.

Totally agree.

My main gripe with the Jags is the lack of communication at times behind their timelines and their plans, but its David Icke stuff to suggest its all a big conspiracy to bleed money from COJ/Duval County to then scuttle off to London or elsewhere.

I also don't understand the resentment that this killed off the Landing. The Landing was a barren shithole by the end anyway and the area around it has hardly benefitted from empty storefronts being filled up by the businesses that departed the Landing. This is far and away the cities best chance to build an entertainment district it will ever get in the heart of it.

A football stadium, a baseball stadium, an arena, an ampitheater, a fairground, a soccer stadium possibly within the next five years is a much much easier pull for the evening and weekend crowd than office workers.

[Fallen Buckeye]

Part of me feels that besides the obvious bargaining chip aspect, it's also about eventually landing a Super Bowl in Jax. After all, one of our biggest hurdles to that is the hotel situation coupled with a lack of things to do in the immediate vicinity of the stadium. That would be a huge boost to his ego should he pull that together, but also he'd rake in a small fortune with the businesses he stands to own in the area.

I don't actually have a problem with any of that. I just question whether this is a worthwhile investment considering the needs of our community, and I'm most angry at our local officials that just acquiesce to the Jags every request while failing to help people with greater need and failing to invest in more sensible, impactful projects for general citizens.

[thelakelander]

I also don't understand the resentment that this killed off the Landing. The Landing was a barren shithole by the end anyway and the area around it has hardly benefitted from empty storefronts being filled up by the businesses that departed the Landing.

My office is across the street from the Landing. The site is a barren shithole right now and has been for the last year.  When in its final days, Coastal Cookies alone employed and attracted more people to the site and the surroundings on a regular day. Whether Lot J happens or not, we never should have spent $25 million to leave the Landing site where it is today.

This is far and away the cities best chance to build an entertainment district it will ever get in the heart of it.

A football stadium, a baseball stadium, an arena, an ampitheater, a fairground, a soccer stadium possibly within the next five years is a much much easier pull for the evening and weekend crowd than office workers.

The Sports District will never be an entertainment district in the way that an Ybor City, French Quarter or Orange Avenue (Orlando) is. It doesn't have the authenticity, history or density. It will be its own thing (nothing wrong with this) and Downtown will have to continue to develop its own (perhaps the Elbow or a corridor like Adams/Hogan/Laura). Nothing wrong with either but it does point to planning where sub districts will need to complement each other in some sort of manner, considering they cater to different demographics.

For example, in the Eastside, assuming Lot J and the Armada soccer stadium materialize, the conversation is about how A. Philip Randolph Boulevard can build off increased traffic in the vicinity to revitalize as a walkable commercial district for those desiring the ultimate local Black experience, culture and history that our region has to offer. The chains at Lot J and events in the Sports District will attract the suburbanites, while  those who desire a strip with good local bbq, soul food, garlic crabs, etc. APR can serve that marketplace, creating economic opportunity and jobs north of the expressway.

[bl8jaxnative]

A 4 seasons would be pretty cool.

I'd be happy with most of this even if that doesn't materialize. 

If we don't help make this happen, that polluted land may sit empty for another 50 years.

[thelakelander]

Seriously don't see a Four Seasons happening in Jax within the next decade. Khan did just donate $5 million to move MOSH to the Shipyards though.

[Bill Hoff]

Seriously don't see a Four Seasons happening in Jax within the next decade. Khan did just donate $5 million to move MOSH to the Shipyards though.

I'll see your 10 years, and raise it to 15 years.

[Ken_FSU]

From a design perspective, hopefully when they reach that point, they won't be exempt from DDRB review.

Carlucci's bill is going to try to strike the DIA and DDRB exemptions for the project and require that Lot J goes through the same approval processes as all other downtown projects.

[marcuscnelson]

The fact that those exemptions existed in the first place should be a serious insult to the city.

[thelakelander]

Editorial: Fascinating future possibilities for Shipyards

Florida Times-Union Editorial Board

The Downtown Investment Authority got an eye-full last week during presentations on the future of the Northbank at the Shipyards and Stadium District.

There were impressive renderings of an entertainment district at Lot J next to TIAA Bank Field, which would include offices, a hotel, living units and a parking garage.

Jaguars President Mark Lamping broke the news that Jaguars owner Shad Khan plans to bring a high-class Four Seasons hotel to the Shipyards area. Lamping made it clear the Four Seasons wouldn't come to Jacksonville without Khan's ownership.

The Museum of Science and History would use the empty space in the Shipyards to build an even more dramatic new center than its plans to renovate the current facility on the Southbank. Shad Khan and his family donated $5 million for the new facility.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/editorials/2020/11/16/editorial-fascinating-future-possibilities-shipyards-let-dia-evaluate-lot-j-plans/6302481002/

[MusicMan]

Hysterical... MOSH to The Shipyards.  Is it a clean build site, YET?

[Charles Hunter]

Hysterical... MOSH to The Shipyards.  Is it a clean build site, YET?

They can have the kid's summer camps analyze the "stuff" in the soil. 

[Ken_FSU]

The Times-Union got a breakdown of the proposed public/private split for Khan's Four Seasons plan that Mark Lamping presented to the DIA.

Khan's plan envisions two development phases on that riverfront site.

The first phase would have a Four Seasons Hotel with 177 rooms and a Four Seasons Residences with 20 to 30 residential units for sale. It also would have a 50,000 square foot medical building specializing in orthopedic treatment, a parking garage, a riverwalk, a promenade connecting the development to the Lot J site, and upgrades to the marina.

The documents show a total estimated cost of about $281 million for the first phase with the city's share at around $70 million. The city's portion of the cost includes a $25 million loan which when repaid would put the city's net cost at $45 million for phase one, the documents show.

Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/11/18/jacksonville-four-seasons-hotel-development-shad-khan/6338084002/

[thelakelander]

What's the groundbreaking date or anticipated construction timeline? Juvember 2025, 2030 or 2050?