Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Steve]

That's a smaller incentives request than previously proposed. Any idea if the development plan has changed?

Major changes appear to be:

- Residential scaled back from 700-750 units down to 400
- More restaurant/retail than originally proposed
- Reintroduction of limited Class A office space (40k sf) into Phase I
- Some changes to parking (I thought I heard two garages?)

I need to re-listen, I might be wrong, but it sounds like the $60 million grant in the original proposal that the city would gift the developers has turned into a 20-year, $60 million loan that the City would extend to Cordish/Iguana instead.

New breakdown appears to be much closer to what I originally wanted to see (a 33/33/33 partnership between Jacksonville, Iguana, and Cordish, rather than a 50/50 public private split, with Coridish and Iguana each only chipping in 25%).

Video renders looked pretty rad, though value engineering will rear its head I'm sure.

Won't be a new urban neighborhood, but it will add a lot of vibrancy to the sports & entertainment district that should help keep Florida/Georgia pumping and bring in some new events as well.

There's also an additional surface parking lot, which was not in the plans before. I tend to think the Garages will be for the "tenants" of the place (apartments, office, etc.) and then the visitors/tailgators would use the surface lot. That would actually bring the cost down quite a bit as that garage over the retention pond wasn't cheap.

I still won't be happy about this unless there's something to create a hard tie for the Jags to not only Jacksonville, but the site in Jacksonville. I realize the investment of $150M from both Khan and Cordish is material, but unless there's a hard tie to the site then well, there is no tie to the site.

[marcuscnelson]

Site plan and renderings from COJ's Twitter:

[thelakelander]

Where is that tower? Is that part of a phase 2 that isn't included in this deal? If that bottom picture is looking west, it would imply the tower and parking garage in the background may be a future vision for the surface parking lot.

[Steve]

I'll say this: Clearly, the Mayor's office engaged folks all over the place to toss their support in to the project immediately after the announcement. I find that interesting as at times during Curry's administration he's seemed to say, "Forget everyone else, I'm going to do it myself."

Clearly he's not doing that here. My previous complaint that it was nearly 50/50 Public/Private obviously changes - this is ~33/67 Public/Private. Now, the product is smaller - much less in terms of apartments, but more in terms of restaurant/retail space.

Economically, this is a better detail for COJ. I'm not saying it tips the scales for me (I was against it previously), but it's undoubtedly better.

[Ken_FSU]

Where is that tower? Is that part of a phase 2 that isn't included in this deal? If that bottom picture is looking west, it would imply the tower and parking garage in the background may be a future vision for the surface parking lot.

Correct, that's Phase II.

The Phase II discussed previously included two towers (residential for the first, and office for the second) connected by a parking garage.

[thelakelander]

It's not a game changer or anything as sold originally but it seems more doable and manageable for the market. Assuming it happens as proposed, you can then see some possible synergy with it and the Rise proposal. Also, let's say from right now, if everything goes well, this phase is completed around 2024. Are we looking at a Lot J/Shipyards 20 year buildout?

[Steve]

On the renderings, the surface lot is currently a retention pond. I never realized it was that easy to fill them in - but this is the second one proposed recently downtown (the Florida Blue garage was the first).

If we can safely do that without flooding someone out (I'm assuming someone dug a hole in the ground for a reason) then great. Additionally, there's also the Channel 12 guy wire on that site - you may be able to do what they need to do and not move that where the previous rendering would have required it to be moved I believe.

I hope they're considering ground level retail in the base of the residential, otherwise that may turn into a weird dead block

Like previously mentioned, I don't get how the 3D renderings lines up with the site plan (and maybe they don't - perhaps there is a concept of a Phase 2 on the surface lot).

Unquestionably, this plan is way more realistic, though I don't think this would be considered crazy transformative or anything.

[Ken_FSU]

These were the Phase 2 details, as an FYI:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-already-planning-phase-ii-for-lot-j-development

[Ken_FSU]

Rewatching the video, a couple of the venues specifically shown in the flyover:

- Under Armour Sports Bar (I'd imagine this would be similar to the multi-level sports bars at most Cordish Live! venues, like Live! at the Battery or Fox Sports Midwest Live! in St. Louis)
- Toyota Backyard (looks like a smaller version of something like Arlington Backyard at Texas Live)
- PBR Jacksonville (the country themed bar present in a lot of Cordish developments)
- Miller Tavern & Beer Garden (restaurant & bar also present at Arlington Live)
- Daily's Marketplace
- Jag's Fit gym

You've gotta think that the reintroduction of 40,000 square feet of office space means that they've got a tenant lined up. Can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would fit that bill though. Fanatics was a name thrown around a lot in the past, but feels too small.

[Steve]

Fanatics was a name thrown around a lot in the past, but feels too small.

Definitely too small. They'd have to split the operation (which you could do - Call Center, then everyone else). But that's not advantageous.

Now, if someone was REALLY interested and needed more SqFt, I'm sure they'd make it work. See Example: JEA HQ

[thelakelander]

Doesn't JEA need a hardened facility around 40,000 square feet? This would be a bad site for that though.

[FlaBoy]

I think they are likely to want a brand new stadium with a roof. For them, it makes too much sense in being able to host events and for games during the heat of August/September/October. I know they have looked at alternatives through upgrades but I see a half cent type tax referendum likely for a stadium and convention center combo similar to Indianapolis with Jags running the convention side of things. That would mean a lot of space likely connected between the stadium/amphitheater/convention center to host conventions, bowl games, or even a draft combine in the future.

They need more events down there for this Jax Live! concept to work. These Live! venues are usually connected to baseball stadiums with 81 games a year, not NFL football and some NBA/NHL venues with 41 games. I can't think of an NFL stadium that doesn't have a parking lot surrounding it because there are not enough events to require more and people love tailgating.

Doubtful the Jags agreed to anything related to not ever relocating.

Also, with the gambling landscape changing, do not be surprised long term if a Casino is in the plans and Cordish has a lot of ties to casinos around the country.

[Tacachale]

That's a smaller incentives request than previously proposed. Any idea if the development plan has changed?

Major changes appear to be:

- Residential scaled back from 700-750 units down to 400
- More restaurant/retail than originally proposed
- Reintroduction of limited Class A office space (40k sf) into Phase I
- Some changes to parking (I thought I heard two garages?)

I need to re-listen, I might be wrong, but it sounds like the $60 million grant in the original proposal that the city would gift the developers has turned into a 20-year, $60 million loan that the City would extend to Cordish/Iguana instead.

New breakdown appears to be much closer to what I originally wanted to see (a 33/33/33 partnership between Jacksonville, Iguana, and Cordish, rather than a 50/50 public private split, with Coridish and Iguana each only chipping in 25%).

Video renders looked pretty rad, though value engineering will rear its head I'm sure.

Won't be a new urban neighborhood, but it will add a lot of vibrancy to the sports & entertainment district that should help keep Florida/Georgia pumping and bring in some new events as well.

There's also an additional surface parking lot, which was not in the plans before. I tend to think the Garages will be for the "tenants" of the place (apartments, office, etc.) and then the visitors/tailgators would use the surface lot. That would actually bring the cost down quite a bit as that garage over the retention pond wasn't cheap.

I still won't be happy about this unless there's something to create a hard tie for the Jags to not only Jacksonville, but the site in Jacksonville. I realize the investment of $150M from both Khan and Cordish is material, but unless there's a hard tie to the site then well, there is no tie to the site.

How big was the Live venue before? The current report is 75,000 square feet of retail.

[thelakelander]

Is this 75k considered to be Live! or additional retail space on the ground floor of the hotel and apartment buildings? For scale's sake, the Landing was 126,000 square feet.

[edjax]

From article in Daily Record it states there will be 75k in retail AND the 100k Live Entertainment venue.