Why council should send FBC demo decision back to HPC

[Steve]

Cumber has been a little disappointing here. Her citing property rights doesn't make sense to me, given that I don't see a difference here compared with Penn Central vs. New York (the supreme court case that established precedent for historic designation).

[vicupstate]

Getting a majority vote against FBC by Council was always going to be tough hill to take. They may not have the membership they use to have but they historically have had a perception of power.

The bad thing is this makes it even easier to short-cut the process and not preserve the next historic building that comes into danger. Bostwick aside, there really haven't been many victories for preservation. There use to be very few and far between, but that may have improved marginally. It hasn't been a sea change though.

There just isn't a constituency for preservation in the city, and the powers that be just don't get it.   

[thelakelander]

The powers to be don't get it. That's pretty clear at this point.

The preservation victories are largely private sector driven. When driven by the private sector, the council doesn't fight back. So it's as if they're largely indifferent to the issue and how it plays a role in urban revitalization. It's been pretty rough the last couple of years but some wins include The Barnett, Life of the South, Lerner Shops, Haydon Burns Library, New Center Hotel. Others appear to be the Ambassador, Old Independent Life, Fire Station No. 4, Jones Brothers Furniture, etc. Overall, there hasn't been much going on in the Northbank. Certainly not any new construction. All Curry's big ticket development projects have been demolitions. From that perspective, one could make the argument that all we've seen in the Northbank is adaptive reuse of older structures, which makes the case for preservation of the remaining building stock.

[jaxjaguar]

Lake by any chance do you have a number for what has been spent on demolition vs revitalization downtown over the last 5-10 years? I imagine the demo number is substantially more... Old Courthouse, ramps, landing, the buildings across from the courthouse, etc.

[thelakelander]

Not on me. Demolition would be ahead by far if we only focused on the last 2 years though.

[jaxlongtimer]

Lake by any chance do you have a number for what has been spent on demolition vs revitalization downtown over the last 5-10 years? I imagine the demo number is substantially more... Old Courthouse, ramps, landing, the buildings across from the courthouse, etc.

Don't forget to include all the private demos permitted by the City such as the Greyhound Station, Doro, now FBC, etc.  If you go back up to 10 years, there are lot's more that have faded from our memories but are evidenced by all the vacant lots/surface lots Downtown.  I think the Duval County Courthouse blocks might fall close to being within 10 years too.  You could do this exercise going back decades and possibly get similar ratios.  Not much of significance from "old Downtown" left today.

[Jagsdrew]

BIG update to this whole situation:

What we know already:
FBC won approval on the demolition of the Independent Life building
They have also secured the loan to the project

What has happened recently:
They have hit a roadblock which really starts the whole project for them, selling their existing buildings/blocks so they can consolidate into one city block.

They had 6-8 large buyers interested in the property, but due to COVID, interest has fizzled out completely.  Smaller buyers were interested in smaller plots and they have received offers from them.  But those offer were about 25% of the value of what they were initially told.

What has resulted is the Hobson block plan is OVER.

What the new plan is now:
The new plan is they are going to move to the Lindsey Memorial Auditorium (LMA) which they have been currently holding their services at the moment during the pandemic. The logic is that they have realized the value has diminished as buyers have walked away. Now they are living within their means in the LMA.

The LMA space still needs work structurally and mechanically and they'll approach it as it comes (Work was done aesthetically to the insider of the building a few years back). Some prominent/faithful members are stepping up (in the $millions) to help make this transition. 

As far as what the Hobson block plan and all the other blocks will look like in the future, still TBD but it's probably safe to say that the Independence Life Building has been saved for now.

[marcuscnelson]

Woah.

The new plan is they are going to move to the Lindsey Memorial Auditorium (LMA) which they have been currently holding their services at the moment during the pandemic. The logic is that they have realized the value has diminished as buyers have walked away. Now they are living within their means in the LMA.

Does the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.

Some prominent/faithful members are stepping up (in the $millions) to help make this transition.

They had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?

As far as what the Hobson block plan and all the other blocks will look like in the future, still TBD but it's probably safe to say that the Independence Life Building has been saved for now.

At this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.

[Jagsdrew]

Does the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.

I always thought this was the most useful space to downgrade to but I don't think it checks all the boxes as far as parking and such. Details of the plans weren't really discussed as far as this new plan.

They had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?

I think those that are contributing may have already stepped up prior to this as part of the transition. If it was securing the loan to consolidate to the Hobson block, their contributions would help pay that down (plus the sale of the buildings) but since that plan is scrapped as well as the loan, those contributing are still putting money forth to move to the LMA.

At this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.

It was mentioned that the smaller buyers were coming in A LOT lower than their asking price. So they knew the juice wasn't worth the squeeze which probably triggered this new plan.

[JPalmer]

They should just move to Cecil Field.

[Charles Hunter]

RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.

[thelakelander]

Does the LMA have space for everything they want? I know the preschool building is on the same block, but parking for that was over on the Hobson block.

I always thought this was the most useful space to downgrade to but I don't think it checks all the boxes as far as parking and such. Details of the plans weren't really discussed as far as this new plan.

They had the millions to transition to the LMA but not the Hobson block?

I think those that are contributing may have already stepped up prior to this as part of the transition. If it was securing the loan to consolidate to the Hobson block, their contributions would help pay that down (plus the sale of the buildings) but since that plan is scrapped as well as the loan, those contributing are still putting money forth to move to the LMA.

At this point I feel like it's being rubbed in Jax's face that we really did not take any advantage of the economic boom before this crash. I wonder if there's any chance of a smaller buyer snapping up the Independent Life Building now, or once we start having an actual economy instead of this suicidal stock market bubble.

It was mentioned that the smaller buyers were coming in A LOT lower than their asking price. So they knew the juice wasn't worth the squeeze which probably triggered this new plan.

LMA makes sense. It may need some work but it won't be $30 million worth of work or whatever the ungodly number was for the Hobson block. Seems the Hobson block would be easier to sell for redevelopment as well. It has smaller properties, meaning you don't need a master developer and there's only so much you can do with an auditorium the size of LMA.

[Jagsdrew]

RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.

The Hobson block has a parking garage which is why they wanted to consolidate into that block.

Reserving the garages for Sundays make sense but they are now at the will of the new owners. The owner might tear those down, splice the parcel up and sell for more than what they bought it for or develop something on their own.

[marcuscnelson]

RE: Parking - it doesn't matter which building or block they use - Hobson or Lindsay Memorial - neither has parking within the block. It would make sense for them to reserve spaces on Sundays as part of the sale of one or more of their garages.

What? There's a parking garage on the Hobson block, it's right next to the Independent Life Building. It's also connected to the Preschool Building on the Lindsay block. If anything, it's the most convenient garage either way, because any of the others require crossing to the opposite corner of intersections.

[Jagsdrew]

LMA makes sense. It may need some work but it won't be $30 million worth of work or whatever the ungodly number was for the Hobson block. Seems the Hobson block would be easier to sell for redevelopment as well. It has smaller properties, meaning you don't need a master developer and there's only so much you can do with an auditorium the size of LMA.

Agreed, they can retrofit the preschool building into something that is more inviting and open as their welcome center and heck, the building is nowhere near historic so have at it!

Remove all the above street crosswalks and make the buildings more inviting and open. Right now, the buildings at the street level don't have any visibility to the inside which in my opinion doesn't give a great feeling or provide a positive energy.