Why council should send FBC demo decision back to HPC

[thelakelander]

Jacksonville's assualt on downtown's history continues as First Baptist Church presses forward on its plans to raze the historically significant Sunday school building. City Council has the power to stop the madness. Here are three reasons the Council should allow the Historic Preservation Commission to prepare a report and make a qualified recommendation for Council to consider prior to approving or rejecting the church's demolition request.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-council-should-send-fbc-demo-decision-back-to-hpc/

[Steve]

Emails sent to all 19 council members. Bill number is 2020-0188. Tonight is the night. If it's approved, then it's done unless someone takes it to court. If it's denied then JHPS meets tomorrow and it sounds like it will recommend landmarking.

[thelakelander]

JHPC meets tomorrow?

[Steve]

JHPC meets tomorrow?

Yes

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-appeal-to-tear-down-building-advances-to-full-city-council

Christian Popoli, city planner supervisor for the Community Planning Division, Historic Preservation Section, told the committee June 16 that his staff intends to recommend the property receive the historic status when he presents the final report to the commission June 24.

[thelakelander]

Wow, I wish I would have read that before sending my letter off to council. That just raises more questions and concerns. They seriously need to raise $15 million? If I were a member, I'd have serious concerns about my dwindling congregation being stuck with $30 million in debt on any type of building project. As an urban planner and preservationist, I'd also call baloney on that the welcome center as designed is the only way they can stay downtown. Getting people in and out of those buildings worked just fine for decades when the church was larger (remember the larger auditoriums weren't built until the 1970s/80s/90s).  Heck, at this point, one can make an strong argument that it would be in the best interest of all if they left downtown completely, since they help depress it due to not consistently activiting its properties with pedestrian scale uses. Another safe play for council could be to tie the demolition permit with a construction permit, similar to what DDRB did with Doro. That will keep the worst case and most likely scenario from happening, which is they demolish and still fail to get financed, leaving another smoldering hole of direct in the heart of downtown.

[Jagsdrew]

Listened to the council meeting last week and the argument is that the building is not functionally suitable for their needs and the floors are off by a half floor so the ground floor is a half floor above street level. Right when you walk in there is two staircases, one up and one down so there is no real lobby. Their struggle is that this can't move the thousands of people that walk through this area if they relocate to one central block.

FBC team (team meaning architects and attorneys along with their staff) presented their plans showing the discrepancies on how it would look if they made it work with the existing building and how altering the structural integrity would jeopardize the building and/or cost millions more. Then showed the new plans and how it all aligns to their Hobson Auditorium. 

Anyways, my gut feeling is this gets approved for demo based off the information presented by both parties. Unfortunate.

Lastly, next week, the FBC congregation will vote on their fiscal 2020-2021 budget and their budget has taken a significant reduction YOY. Down around 17-18%.

[thelakelander]

Listened to the council meeting last week and the argument is that the building is not functionally suitable for their needs and the floors are off by a half floor so the ground floor is a half floor above street level. Right when you walk in there is two staircases, one up and one down so there is no real lobby. Their struggle is that this can't move the thousands of people that walk through this area if they relocate to one central block.

Yeah, I'd seriously question that or the need to shuttle "thousands" of people through a single entrance. Many larger congregations successfully move people in and out of their historic facilities. Hell, mall esplanades don't need to be that wide to accommodate people. I do believe there are a variety of options available. Various forms of preserving the facade could be viable as well. The problem is FBC leadership wants that modern looking thing instead of preservation. The extension of the client's preference means the architects, engineers and attorneys on their dime will craft an argument to support the client's position. It's the classic old Jax story of believing new is better than old. Not confident Council will question it though. To truly vet, you'd need an independent party not beholden to the client.





Regardless of that, they don't have financing and it's not given that they'll get financing. At a minimum, even if I'm a council member willing to glaze over Section 307.104 of the Code of Ordinances because I personally feel sorry for FBC, I'd tie the demolition and building permits together. That keeps you from ending up with a vacant piece of dirt.

[marcuscnelson]

FBC team (team meaning architects and attorneys along with their staff) presented their plans showing the discrepancies on how it would look if they made it work with the existing building and how altering the structural integrity would jeopardize the building and/or cost millions more. Then showed the new plans and how it all aligns to their Hobson Auditorium.

I'd like to see what those "making it work" plans look like. I'm not sure why "jeopardizing the building" is that much of a concern for them when they're asking to demolish it.

It's really that simple. I imagine there could be some practical changes (signage, bollards for safety, improving the facade at pedestrian level) but this is really halfway there.

Regardless of that, they don't have financing and it's not given that they'll get financing. At a minimum, even if I'm a council member willing to glaze over Section 307.104 of the Code of Ordinances because I personally feel sorry for FBC, I'd tie the demolition and building permits together. That keeps you from ending up with a vacant piece of dirt.

It really does seem like they should consider moving to Nocatee. I'd be impressed if they could really find $15 million at a time like this. In an unrelated side note, I always wondered how the pastor could get from Nocatee to Downtown so quickly.

[thelakelander]

Demolition was approved 15-4:

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20200623/jacksonville-city-council-oks-first-baptist-church-plan-to-demolish-93-year-old-building

Interesting quotes!

City Councilman Danny Becton asked his colleagues to defer the decision until the preservation commission could more fully vet whether the church building should be considered a landmark, but only two other council members agreed.

"I keep hearing this is historical and it's a landmark. It's not," said Councilman Al Ferraro. "In a lot of tours of historical buildings, this is never put in there."

City Councilwoman LeAnna Cumber said the issue was even simpler than that.

"This is a pure property rights issue," she said Tuesday before voting to allow the demolition.

Becton argued the church's appeal of the preservation commission decision was a "very rare, if ever, used" tactic that "probably has not happened in our recollection."

"Maybe we should at least let the process vet whether it is a historical landmark before approving the demolition," he said.

But City Councilman Reggie Gaffney, who supported the demolition, said allowing the demolition would better serve downtown.

"We have the authority today to make this decision and allow this church to move forward and try to develop this," Gaffney said. "They're going to build something we'll be proud of."

[marcuscnelson]

"They're going to build something we'll be proud of."

Oh dear.

[Jagsdrew]

The next 10 years for FBC should be interesting. Senior leadership and staff has turned over with a new team over the last few years. Younger group of pastors now and a lot of things have reason been overhauled. You'll see less of them making noise around political issues like the old regime and rather focus on their congregation. From their standpoint, they've inherited a lot of the financial problems that were kicked down the road from previous leadership (maybe a reason the old pastor stepped down suddenly). Maintenance issues on their buildings are compounding, attendance is down and in turn tithes/offerings are down. What was once a church with a strong foothold is going through a challenging time.

Their plan to right size the church campus could save their presence downtown but like I said, they bought 10 more years imo to see if this all can come together. My opinion, their plan could work out as they are creating multiple services and an intimate environment. Their current facility is a full block fortress that you can really walk into the sanctuary and not say a word to anyone the way the building is laid out.

The smaller scale really can help create more of a church/worshipful experience feel instead of a 4th errr 3rd quarter of a Jaguars game where everyone is peppered in. .

[Jagsdrew]

Lastly, wish the church the best in their plans. They got what they wanted. This is make or break for them and right now it's an uphill challenge trying to grow membership when churches like Eleven22 and Celebration are bringing in thousands of members each week in prime suburban locations.

[jaxlongtimer]

Demolition was approved 15-4:

Lake, this is very sad.  Especially some of the absurd quotes made by council persons explaining their votes.  No appreciation for architecture, history or character of the City.  But, not surprising.  A land use lawyer told me long ago, you can not beat a church in a land use battle in this town, no matter how strong your arguments or legal position.  And if you go to court, the judges will be just like the elected officials and rule against you.  So, save your money and don't try fighting a church.  So much, too, for separation of church and state.

In this case, FBC also had Hainline, a Curry buddy, as their attorney.  Despite the JEA fiasco, it looks like Curry still has something of a hold on some council members.  Disappointing to see.  Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?

[marcuscnelson]

Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?

Becton, Boylan, DeFoor, and Carlucci.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/council-vote-means-first-baptist-can-demolish-a-downtown-building

"Frankly, I'm tired of buildings getting torn down in Jacksonville," Carlucci said. "We keep losing piece by piece parts of our fabric that make Jacksonville what it is and our charm."

[jaxlongtimer]

Do you know the names of the 4 who voted to deny/delay?

Becton, Boylan, DeFoor, and Carlucci.

Not surprised by the list.  That's 4 that have recently shown some backbone to business as usual in the River City.  DeFoor and Carlucci, respectively, have roots in the more historic Riverside and San Marco areas.  Boylan has had fights over historic buildings in Mandarin (where Hazouri also has roots).

Surprised that Cumber didn't side with them since she represents San Marco.  Looks like Gaffney represents historic Springfield and Downtown so you would have thought he might be supportive but he blows with the wind it seems so no surprise he dropped out.  Morgan has a few historic buildings in Arlington so she also could have been sympathetic to this cause.  Add Dennis who represents the historic Rail Yard District and can usually be counted on to side against friends of the mayor and you would have had at least 9 votes if all of the above fell in line.  One more to make a majority might have joined them if they thought their vote would make a difference and they would have political cover as part of the majority.  Refer to my prior post for why none of this seemed to matter here.