Jaguars New Stadium?

[Kerry]

Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

[JaGoaT]

Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

None of the cities you mentioned have as much potential as Jacksonville.

[jaxlongtimer]

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars.

I would suggest that Jax leaders wanted a team to divert the attention of the populace away from the low self esteem derived from the incompetence of such leaders to advance the City  .

Los Angeles did fine without an NFL team  .  So are Austin, San Antonio, Orlando, Portland, now San Diego and St. Louis, up until now Las Vegas, etc.  And, many cities that now have an NFL team got them because they were already on a roll... Charlotte, Nashville, Indianapolis, now Las Vegas, even Los Angeles, etc. 

Also, consider that may sports teams have regional names (New England, Tennessee, Carolina, Texans, Minnesota, Arizona, etc.) that don't clearly link a team to a city and many don't actually play within the city limits of the city they count on for support.  Are those teams putting a city on the map?

Fact is no big league team in any sport is coming to your city if you can't support it from the day it arrives.  That implies the city is already on the map. Jax got a team due to a perception that it was one of those cities.  I would suggest it should be much further along but isn't due to poor leadership and visioning.  No pro team can fix that and they are not a panacea for a city's issues, whatever they may be.

And, be careful what you wish for.  I am not sure if it isn't sometimes a curse to be too well known.  Cities such as Las Vegas and Orlando have been overwhelmed by their growth spurts fueled by their notoriety.  I certainly don't envy those places.  As Jax grows, we are beginning to experience some of the same issues, particularly growth management manifested through urban sprawl, loss of green spaces, declining infrastructure and bottle-necked traffic.  Some of us long-timers may be soon yearning for less populous times.

Jax's growth is very much due to its embedded corporate base, natural assets, good geography, nice weather, location in a tax advantaged state, lower cost of business, diverse economic base, etc.  None of that is attributable to getting a pro sports team.  If the Jags left tomorrow, the only evidence of their presence here would be memories and the stadium with its accompanying taxpayer debt.

In fact, the top reasons I hear from new comers for moving to Jax are the lower cost of living, weather, the water, less traffic headaches, and, surprisingly often, to join relatives or friends already here that exposed them to the niceties of our lifestyle during family visits.  None have ever told me the Jags made a difference in their coming to Jax. 

Lastly, today, your reputation on the internet may do more to promote your city than pro-sports.  There are dozens of "hot cities" that are being boosted by travel review sites (such as Trip Advisor), eco-tourism, social media and making "best places to..." lists.

I might add that I didn't see Amazon listing "having a pro sports team" as one of their criteria for a second HQ's city.

[I-10east]

The 'Muh Jags could move for all I care" people are so vociferous....

[Kerry]

Note to Kerry: I lived here in 1988-1991. No one knew where or what Jacksonville FL was. People from New England thought we were a backwater town with dirty and stinky air. It's hard to have an identity in Florida with cites like Orlando(DW), Miami, Tampa, Keys. We were not a tourist destination. JAX was not much different than many mid sized cities at that time - Charlotte, Birmingham, R-D, Richmond and yes, Oklahoma City. I and most people liked it at the time, as nice city that offered the beaches but was not crowded.

For a place like JAX there must be a spark to ignite  fire and put JAX on the map. That was football and the Jaguars. I'm not sure many people would know or care where Oklahoma City was without the Thunder.

Now most of the growth is organic or self sustaining, so the Jaguars importance is down the scale. But, as Ken implies I don't want to check that.

PS: I was an inaugural ticket holder to Jags (as my moniker implies) until this year.  I like NFL football and have followed it since the 60's, but don't live and die by it as some do.

Tines are changing and cities no longer need pro-sports to establish an identity - unless the city in general suffers from collective low self-esteem.

Des Moines, Greenville, Chattanooga, Tulsa, Albuquerque and many many others are doing just fine.

None of the cities you mentioned have as much potential as Jacksonville.

They don't have the potential of Jax because they have already capitalized on it.  All those cities are light years ahead if Jax...and I competely left Austin off the list although they are a State Capitol and home to UT.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Problem #1:  The $500 million will quickly turn into over $1 billion.  The original rebuild of the stadium experienced similar or greater cost inflation.  Every City building project has done the same (see the Courthouse, etc.).  Call it bait and switch because once you start construction, you are hooked and really can't back out (see JEA Georgia nuclear power plant).

Thus far, with every construction project we've had at the stadium, Khan has offered to pay for overruns as long as he had final say in who did the work.  So, a hard no on anything even remotely resembling the courthouse fiasco.

Problem #2: What the City really should ask for is stock in Jacksonville Jaguars, Inc.  The City gets virtually no revenue off the Jags activities and bears much of their expenses.  And, national studies have all concluded that pro teams do not add to a community's economy, they subtract from it.  What they add is intangible "psychological rewards" although the way the Jags have played the last few years that may also be up for debate.  Meanwhile, by many reports, the Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought the team.  Maybe we sell JEA and buy the Jags and get their dividends to subsidize the City budget  !

I'm not going to dig up a link to verify or disprove your theory, but I'm pretty sure all of the studies have been fairly inconclusive.  QoL matters, but the response you get from people over worth is as contrasting as black is to white.  So while municipalities might have a hard time financially quantifying the benefit of having the team here, I'm sure there are many businesses that can directly tie a large portion of their profits to the 9 weeks a year the Jags are here. 

Problem #3:  The mayor and City Council will be putty in Khan's hands and give away the City to keep the team.  We should put the subsidies up for a vote:  Give the Jags the subsidies and keep the team or don't give them the subsidies and thank them for the memories.  I would love to see a UNF poll on that!

I'd be OK with this, but the money spent on advertising one view or the other might come close to covering the cost of the upgrade itself.

Problem #4:  We can extend the lease for 25 to 30 more years but the Jags will be back in 10 years for still more improvements and more subsidies.  They didn't go 25 years on the last lease without multiple asks and don't expect the pattern to change for the next 25 years.

I don't disagree.  But in all honestly, the dealings between Khan, the Jags and the city have gone better than a lot of deals you read about across the country regarding other cities and their sports teams.

Problem #5:  Given the concerns over concussions, TV saturation, TV quality so good its like being at the game while staying home, more competition for eyeballs, sports fatigue with 24/7 availability, etc., the NFL may be close to its peak popularity.  In 25 years, we may be more interested in virtual reality or watching Jax video game teams pitted against other cities for a global championship (these competitions already fill large arenas on a regular basis).

Which is EXACTLY why this upgrade will have immensely more impact than any video boards or swimming pools or club upgrades.  The biggest complaint I hear is the heat.

Problem #6:  In 25 years, the stadium may be sitting in a swamp due to the river overflowing its banks due to rising seas.

Football in the mud is awesome!

[I-10east]

^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

[Kerry]

If it was up to me most of corporate welfare Jax hands out would get rescinded.  If Amazon wants access to the Jax customer base they should have paid full price for it.  Inwould like that $20 million back also.

[Adam White]

^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

[I-10east]

^^^Fair enough

[copperfiend]

^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

[Kerry]

^^^I don't even have a problem with people not wanting the city to get screwed over by a billionaire, I totally get it. It's just the obvious Jags disdain that gets very tiresome. If I had a dollar for how many times someone said "We'll be okay without the NFL" I would have half a million. I get it, the same ten people hate the Jaguars. Isn't it a bit polarizing constantly talking about how the city's NFL team should relocate? Why not concentrate on the policies "no welfare for billionaires etc" instead of singing Ray Charles's "Hit the Road Jack"?

Saying Jax would be okay without the NFL doesn't necessarily equate to "hating the Jaguars".

Obviously Jacksonville would be okay without an NFL team. And everyone's definition of okay would be different.

A one town team losing it's only team would be bad for civil morale, I believe.

The Jaguars (even losing) are a source of pride for Jacksonville residents. It's a reason why Sacramento fought like hell to keep the Kings.

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

[copperfiend]

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

[Tacachale]

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily's Place
About 90% of UNF's campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

[Kerry]

I think that is the key right there.  By making the Jags the source of pride instead of the City itself through great public spaces, world-class museums, well maintained urban parks, restaurants, and the complete urban landscape the City short changed itself and misapplied it efforts.  Instead of the City being a great place that then attracted the NFL, we put the cart before the horse and got an NFL team hoping it would make Jacksonville a place to be proud of.  It didn't work out that way as you pointed out.  Take away the Jags and you have Jacksonville 1995 because since 1995 most of efforts (and dollars) have gone to the Jags at the neglect of almost everything else.

Are the two mutually exclusive? I am pretty sure the people walking around town in Jaguar gear, yelling "DUUUVAL!" are proud of the team and the city.

People are going to see it however they want.

There is zero evidence that the city missed out on anything (especially, laughably, a mythical world class museum) because they got an NFL team in the 90's. Baltimore, Charlotte and Nashville also got NFL franchise in the 1990's and seem to be thriving as cities.

Other things that have happened since 1995:

Completion of the St. James Building renovation
Permanent home for MOCA Jax
Major renovation of the Times-Union Center
Northbank Riverwalk, regularly expanded
New Main Library
Jax Arena
Baseball Grounds
Equestrian Center
Daily's Place
About 90% of UNF's campus
Immense expansion and improvement of the zoo
Thousands of acres of preserve lands

Yes things have come since then, and just as much has left (see The Landing), and most never materialized at all.  Alas, my focus always has been on the urban core.

Also, Daily's Place IS a Save the Jags expenditure.  The whole purpose of it was to generate revenue for the Jags.  Otherwise, the City would just own it outright and not share profits with the Jags.