Commuter Rail Study Update: Costs and Ridership

[Ocklawaha]

Unless we go multi-county I could see the following boundries:

Wells Road area - SW line

Airport Connector - N line

Avenues - SE line

In ANY case the off peak services beyond these points will be M/L nil, perhaps a few daylight trains SW or SE I don't see anything going north beyond the airport but rush hour - or special INTO FERNANDINA BEACH services during a "Shrimp Festival" or similar event.

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Uh ... Ock ... Wells Road is in Clay County, you'd have to stop at Argyle Forest Blvd. to stay inside Duval. The creek is the county line ... sooo close, yet sooo far.

[thelakelander]

Take it down to I-295, which is the Duval/Clay County line and a block away from Wells Road.  If Clay wants in (I don't see why they would not) they can pay for their own portion.  Given their pattern of development, it would not cost them much to serve Orange Park and Fleming Island.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes, I know... (I've probably spent more hours on that piece of railroad then most folks spend in a lifetime at the grocery store) But 295 is pretty much a no go for exits and who but the locals know where Collins road is? So in this case we might have to do the 1,000 yards of Clay to fill the train, if they come aboard - Kingsley would make a better off peak terminal.

The SE line is the same way. Avenues? Bayard? Race Track? 210? Where ever the line would catch the most fish.

The N line is easy in this regard.


Also we keep running with those ugly darn DMU cars from a financially troubled supplier - WAY behind on deliverys. Why not a real rail car, built of stainless steel like God intended! There are still fleets to be had and re-built. In fact, we could even do Federal Grant Transfers and get em for free! RDC's or the newer SPV-2000's, get almost double the mpg of a DMU.


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Charles and Lake, y'all know we can't count the feet into Clay or another County in feet=dollars right? We also have to factor cars removed from our own roadways - subtract the added repair and enforcement costs + farebox = benefit to Duval tax payers. It's not as black and white as the dotted line on the map.

In fact cases could be found and cited where one city or county has spent a fortune in another location and counted the cost in long-term savings. I'm not suggesting we do it all, but saying if a stopping point at Wells makes more $$ sense, or Golf World...Then why not.

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

"Argyle Forest" ... boy, was I lost ... don't know why I was on Blanding.
Yeah, going a few feet into Clay shouldn't be a problem - after all, a stop just short of the county line (on the Duval side) would still attract Clay riders, as well as their cars.  Put a station with a park-ride lot at Wells, and keep their cars on their side of the border.

[thelakelander]

Charles and Lake, y'all know we can't count the feet into Clay or another County in feet=dollars right? We also have to factor cars removed from our own roadways - subtract the added repair and enforcement costs + farebox = benefit to Duval tax payers. It's not as black and white as the dotted line on the map.

In this case, its about as black and white as it gets.  We don't have tons of dollars to be investing in areas outside of our border.  We have our own infrastructure problems we need to focus on with our limited funds.  Duval can get away with a starter plan that reaches the county line.  However, because of Clay's poor planning over the decades, their traffic jams are the worst in the state.  A rail solution that offers an alternative to their congestion problems should be paid for by them.  Its still a lot cheaper than adding lanes on Blanding or Park.

The same goes for St. Johns.  We could terminate a line at St. Augustine Road with a huge Park and Ride lot that will serve Duval well.  Riders from St. Johns can use this facility to bypass Duval congestion.  However, if St. Johns wants to properly plan for their growth, it makes sense for them to invest in extending rail deeper into their county.  Once again, this is something that becomes an alternative to St. Johns' future congestion problems.  They should share in the costs.  

[JeffreyS]

Clay wants in they already buoght and set aside land for the flemming island doctors inlet stop.

[thelakelander]

Great.  Its something that would benefit them just as much as anyone else.  They should have no problem sharing in on the costs.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake we are saying the same thing in different ways. If we follow the standard highway formula:

Cost. One legal 80,000 pound GVW tractor-trailer truck does as much damage to road pavement as 9,600 cars. (Highway Research Board, NAS, 1962).

Then factor in the amount of cars crossing that line x the amount of wear on the road. I don't have an exact figure for that but calculate that that same 80,000 pound truck probably pays 9,600 per year for road use (just to keep things simple) so however many autos Clay sends x roughly a dollar per year per vehicle. It won't pay for commuter rail, nor will it patch the potholes in Panama Park, but it makes a nice contribution if they ride our train instead. Some updated FLORIDA numbers would be keen on getting to the bottom of it.

I sort of see it in the typical "old hippie" approach. You have a neighbor who's yard is infested with fire ants. Since he never goes out and doesn't care your children pay the price. You can spray the critters all you want and they just march back over the line. So perhaps a small investment in Andro just before an afternoon shower - and before your neighbor gets home will do the trick! Problem solved. So build the line to the edge and let em ride. 100' this way or that doesn't make the case IMO.

With regional transit coming, it's really a dead subject anyway. As JefferyS said, their all onboard anyway.

OCKLAWAHA

[alta]

I live in the urban core and I'm pro transit.  I will play the part of a person living in Orange Park going to work at NAS or downtown.  A "choice rider" as JTA refers to them.

Will I be able to easily park and catch a train that is operating on a frequent, reliable basis?
At the commuter rail station or onboard will I be able to buy a coffee, food,  newspaper or be able access free wifi? 
If the commuter rail station is not located within walking distance of my final destination is there regular shuttle in place to get me to where I am going?

For transit to be successful in Jacksonville you have to be able to convince people to get out of the car and use mass transit.  If the perception is that it is a hassle or inconvenient citizens will continue to drive their single occupied cars into the downtown parking garages.  Ironically cities with well designed transit systems have high density, high value real estate located near their transit stations.  These areas are typically located in areas that already have infrastructure which don't require any additional investment.  A well designed system will pay for itself without tax increases.

[thelakelander]

Just to follow up on the recent comments, I also think its key to focus on transit oriented and adjacent development opportunities, just as much as worrying about taking riders out of their cars.  Imo, that as a priority (taking a significant number of cars off the street) will be a losing battle for a number of years.  Preliminary ridership numbers show the majority of riders won't be coming from surrounding counties.  They'll be from neighborhoods and destinations within the I-295 loop. 

So where do we have opportunities to instantly become attractive by directly connecting to major destinations, high density areas and spots for urban infill development?  We need to take off our transit planner caps and replace them with urban planning to address the issue of turning isolated TODs into extended Transit Oriented "Districts".  JTA may not realize this, but they hold more influence on this community than the mayor.  They have the opportunity to create a system that drives Jacksonville's growth patterns for the next century, as opposed to reacting to sprawl growth. 

We need to view our transit system as a viable alternative for vehicular travel, but not an end all solution, because it will not solve the congestion problems of Blanding and Park.  By the same token subways in DC and NYC have not solved those city's congestion problems. They are just well designed enough to be real viable alternatives to using the car.  However, their impact on the built environment of those communities has been significant.  When we combine transit and urban planning together, mass transit becomes a game changer when it comes to quality of life impact.

[Ocklawaha]

So where do we have opportunities to instantly become attractive by directly connecting to major destinations, high density areas and spots for urban infill development?  We need to take off our transit planner caps and replace them with urban planning to address the issue of turning isolated TODs into extended Transit Oriented "Districts".  JTA may not realize this, but they hold more influence on this community than the mayor.  They have the opportunity to create a system that drives Jacksonville's growth patterns for the next century, as opposed to reacting to sprawl growth.

It's no secret that the Traction Companies built the cities we live in today, in that respect they certainly were "urban planners". Companies such as "The Ortega Company" would buy a large tract of land, and lay out the community focused on the transit core. They then would build a light rail or streetcar line to the nearest connection with the city's traction system. Once connected, joint operations would start and usually end up with the larger company buying the smaller and consolidation of the whole. Thus one got Brooklyn - 5 Points - Riverside - Avondale - Fishweir - Fairfax  and Ortega, like strings of pearls.

The danger we face is that running some super-bus from downtown over the freeway to XYZ does nothing to develop or gel the city. These ideas MUST be incorporated into the area's where people live - work - play. Freeway flyer's are a good idea for rush hours, and they do replace some automobiles but there will always be a horde that fills the lanes to capacity - no matter what amount of money is poured into the road. When JTA comes calling with BRT and shows off slick presentations with lines like "If we sent a bus to your driveway, where would you want to go? When the correct answer might be "I don't want to ride the bus." or "I prefer the SKyway etc." Another pitfall is the boasting of endless TOD coming from BRT. "It happened in Cleveland", they'll say. But no, it didn't. It is nearly 75% socialized TOD or government offices, services, state, local and federal offices. They claim restaurants just like rail. It's true the buildings have snack bars in them and there is a Mac Donalds. Hardly the TOD heaven we've been led to believe. LOOK AT THE PLANS, every TOD they have is JTA - Created. Socialized. Not private tax paying businesses.

The BRT has reared it's ugly head again as the premiere transit trunk line in JTA's arsnel. Another round of dog and pony shows is scheduled

TIMES UNION - last Friday.

On Monday, November 10, JTA is holding two public meetings at the Gateway Mall stage:
At 4:30 (until 6:00) will be a "Public Hearing for the proposed North Bus Maintenance Facility adjacent to the intersection of Golfair Blvd. and Davis Street." Formal presentation at 5:30.

Immediately following, will be a Public Meeting about the North BRT corridor, from 6:00 to 7:30. Typical Open House format, with maps, drawings, and engineers.

They will repeat the North BRT Corridor Open House on the 17th at FCCJ North, also from 6:00 - 7:30. This is billed as a "kick off" of the study.

Materials are available on both topics (starting today, the 20th) at the JTA Offices on Myrtle or the Tax Collector at Gateway.

How to get the point across to redirect the lines? BTW, Cleveland built LIGHT BRT and guess what? It came in at $30 Million a mile. Certainly Commuter Rail and Streetcar are cheaper (by far) and Skyway or LRT are no more then equal at worst. Build the Rail and feed it with BRT.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Ock, BRT never went anywhere.  The only part that has been delayed is the downtown transit mall portion.  At one point, the plan was to slow BRT plans down to wait for the commuter rail/streetcar studies to be completed.  If we wait for the other studies to be completed, we may find out that paying $30 million a mile for BRT along I-95 is not the best use of funds.  For all we know, the federal government's transit funding priorities may change with the upcoming election.  Anyway, I guess waiting for the current studies to be completed aren't a part of the plans.  It looks like someone out there wants BRT, hell or high water.

Btw, here is the image of the proposed split commuter rail platforms.  We really need to get that convention center out of there or else we'll end up with an inefficient transportation center and an unattractive convention facility.

[Ocklawaha]

Can you spell "S - E - T   U - P"? This smells to high heavens, we all heard the Amtrak officer agree with me that the terminal MUST BE switchable - workable from both ends - and all in one place. I asked it and Amtrak responded, it's in the record. This is why, Lake is your image the one that came from the meeting? Is this what they plan to do to commuter rail? Is this from Gannet Flemming or JTA? GF are railroad people and ought to know better. I happen to know FDOT hit the fan when I talked to their rail people about this roumor. "INSANE", "STUPID", etc... and those were the nice things they said.

l

I don't want to sound boastful, I'm too damn mad for that. But if the above is the offical image and the image below is my guess on how they would screw up the terminal, then I think your old transit guy and resident urban planner have their numbers pretty well figured out.

This is what is "out" in Rumor mill as the plan coming from Gannet Fleming. My only guess is they have been told to keep their hands off the Convention Center, (which is already disfunctional due to size).

The logical path of this type of plan would be the Convention Center Stays, Amtrak Returns and perhaps adds a through train on the Florida East Coast. The FEC train frankly gives us a leg up with improvements to capacity for our own commuter rail on the same route. Only the Amtrak and SE/FEC Commuter line could use the very limited 4 track terminal. We are a service stop for Amtrak, 30 minutes currently, and it is not uncommon for 2 trains to be in the station together even in the current location. But the current station is so samll they can only "work" one train at a time and there is no way around the first to get to the second! This station address some of that, it would include removal of all fill dirt (AND TUNNELS) down to near water-level, on ground that was once McCoys Creek Swamp. A new overhead corridor would connect the tracks with the Northside Skyway and Commuter Rail via a 500 foot Sky Walk. The 4 track terminal would be accessible at any point, and the tracks could be switched from both ends. However, the N and SW or W Commuter Rail, would be a dead end-track station (Properly Called HEAD, HEAD HOUSE or STUB TRACK terminals, something that went out of vogue with coal burning steam engines. It would also subject the entire terminal to tropical storm flooding such as those of the 1890's that wrecked the original massive train shed.

The end result of this plan will be a crippled commuter system, long connections, flooding (AGAIN) of the terminal property, abandonment of the tunnels, Amtrak by-passes Jacksonville for some new Terminal in Orlando (already in the State Plan) and splits it's trains 3 ways from there. One section working West to Tampa, A section South to Sarasota/Ft. Myers, and a new rail line and section running to Titusville and hence South on the FEC. The losers in this case are NORTH FLORIDA, including JACKSONVILLE, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Palm Coast-Bunnell, Ocala, Gainesville, Waldo, Starke, Wildwood, Bushnell.

This is the image I posted to say how the Terminal SHOULD look. According to their new drawing, they are going to have to rebuilt the Lee-Park street Viaduct anyway, so imagine this as the answer. If they dig out the new tracks and put them in a tub - which will cost as much as the stupid viaduct anyway, then they will be far below the old tunnel level and require the new overhead skywalk (further jacking the price up and ruining the appearence of the old station). They have forgotten the tropical storm of 1890 which flooded the terminal up into the passenger car floors... and now they want to RETURN to that level? My aren't we smart.

I'll just call this the Bob Mann - Terminal Plan or the OCKLAWAHA TERMINAL. My only guess here is that someone that has worked on a railroad and doesn't give a damn for short sighted planning, got wind of this mess!

The logical path of this type of plan would be the Convention Center is removed to a new site, where it has room to grow.  Amtrak Returns and perhaps adds a dozen through trains on the Florida East Coast, CSX and NS. The FEC-CSX trains frankly gives us a leg up with improvements to capacity for our own commuter rail on the same routes.  Amtrak and ALL of our commuter rail operations could use this 10 track terminal, including perhaps 2 streetcar/LRT tracks or platforms. We are a service stop for Amtrak, 30 minutes currently, and it is not uncommon for 2 trains to be in the station together even in the current location. But the current station is so samll they can only "work" one train at a time and there is no way around the first to get to the second! This station address all of that, it would include replacement of all fill dirt AND EXTENSION of the TUNNELS to within the Station Proper, as well as a new tunnel under Bay Street that would link the entire Skyway-Bus-Rail Corridor. No Sky Walk would be built, concourses would rise from the tunnels below, between every 2 tracks just as they have since 1919. The 10 track terminal would be accessable at any point, and the tracks could be switched from both ends. . It would also subject the entire terminal to a required re-re-building of the Park-Lee Street Viaduct in order to clear the trains below. A plus of this idea is that the new Viaduct could carry our streetcars between 5-Points and Downtown. 

The end result of this plan will be an expandable commuter system, cross platform connections, cross platform LRT/Streetcar connections, Greyhound-Trailways moves into the former convention center space outlined in white, showing the E-W concourse remains and the convention area is cut down to make room for bus parking and service as well as bus platforms. This reduces the distance from Amtrak and Commuter Rail to Intercity bus by 2 city blocks. Flooding of the terminal property, abandonment of the tunnels, is avoided in all but extreme acts-of-God. Amtrak by-passes any new "Orlando - Florida Central Station"  for the new Jacksonville Terminal. The State plan to make Orlando the Rail hub of the Southeast, goes to hell in a handbasket saving the taxpayers Billions of dollars reinvested in new train service that benefits Orlando-Tampa-Miami corridors. Amtrak returns to tradition with more choices and splits it's trains 5 ways from there. One section working West to Tallahassee-New Orleans, another Southwest to Waldo-Oacla-Bushnell-Lakeland-Tampa, A section South to Sarasota/Ft. Myers from Tampa or Lakeland, another section leaves for Miami/Tampa or Ft. Myers/Sarasota via the Roosevelt Blvd CSX mainline to Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - Orlando. A new rail operation on the Florida East Coast running south to St. Augustine - Daytona -  Titusville and hence South on the FEC SOUTHERN speedway, from Cincinnati - Atlanta - Macon - Valdosta and Jacksonville. losers in this case are (maybe a few jobs in Orlando, but the Commuter Rail and Corridor benefits of free space by working Amtrak in Jacksonville should more then balance this out). The winners are FLORIDA in general, and all of North Florida-South Georgia, JACKSONVILLE, St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Palm Coast-Bunnell, Ocala, Gainesville, Waldo, Starke, Wildwood, Bushnell.

Just look at that dumb image they published. Imagine a train that runs through from St. Augustine to the Airport! What about Roosevelt Kent to JTB? So what do we do with it? Make two station stops? What about when one line gets light and the other still is running heavy due to a car accident on the freeway? Do we move the extra cars back to Beaver Street then back down to the "other" station? Amtrak plans to pretty well flood us with trains on their new budget. Designs on New Orleans - Chicago - Atlanta - New York - Tampa - Ft. Myers - Miami - Orlando - FLORIDA EAST COAST all on the table now. So if we get just 5 new trains to the North and all 5 split in Jacksonville for both coasts. Toss in the Tallahassee - New Orleans route and you've got 6 - maybe 7. That will become 12 - 14 south of Jacksonville. Which means we are switching 18 trains per direction per day... on what tracks? OUTRAGE!