Covent Garden Market & What's Next For The Landing

[thelakelander]

What factors would make you believe that there would be zero opportunity for adaptive reuse even if it were not retail? What would make you spend +$20 million in tax money to kick out businesses and demolish without first exploring other options and opportunities?

Unless an investor is willing to pay for the site, what the authorities do with it is determined by the city government.

In the UK, investment capital is involved in Covent Garden as a profitable enterprise.

https://quoteddata.com/2019/07/capital-counties-pulls-trigger-covent-garden-demerger/

Is there a similar group of financiers interested in the Landing?

The previous owner was. He had a deal with COJ to do just that in 2015. That deal died when Alvin Brown lost to Lenny Curry. So yes, there has been interest from the private sector.

[Wombley Womberly]

Do you go downtown and if so, how often?

Relevance?

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.

What do those "success stories" have in common with the Jacksonville Landing?

[Tacachale]

Do you go downtown and if so, how often?

Relevance?

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.

What do those "success stories" have in common with the Jacksonville Landing?

You don't have to look at London as the only example, as there are examples in cities of all sizes. We've profiled similar adaptive reuse projects of failed or aging marketplaces in Toledo, Norfolk, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Flint, Michigan, Battle Creek, Michigan, and now London. We've also highlighted a possible format for adaptive reuse to take here at the Landing. We're also literally the only city that has ever totally demolished a Rouse marketplace without replacement. At a certain point, it's our decisions that are the ones out of step with reality.

[Wombley Womberly]

Do you go downtown and if so, how often?

Relevance?

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.

What do those "success stories" have in common with the Jacksonville Landing?

You don't have to look at London as the only example, as there are examples in cities of all sizes. We've profiled similar adaptive reuse projects of failed or aging marketplaces in Toledo, Norfolk, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Flint, Michigan, Battle Creek, Michigan, and now London. We've also highlighted a possible format for adaptive reuse to take here at the Landing. We're also literally the only city that has ever totally demolished a Rouse marketplace without replacement. At a certain point, it's our decisions that are the ones out of step with reality.

Interesting perspective.

[thelakelander]

Do you go downtown and if so, how often?

Relevance?

Was trying to better understand your perspective.

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.

What do those "success stories" have in common with the Jacksonville Landing?

Tacachale answered it but they're all the same type of failed 1980s festival marketplace concept (most by the same developer) that were successfully updated or converted into something else.

[Wombley Womberly]

Was trying to better understand your perspective.

OK.

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.

Tacachale answered it but they're all the same type of failed 1980s festival marketplace concept (most by the same developer) that were successfully updated or converted into something else.

My reading leads me to a conclusion at odds with the position that "the same type of failed 1980s festival marketplace concept (most by the same developer)... were successfully updated or converted into something else".

Good luck with your quest.

[thelakelander]

Are you at odds with the fact that they were all festival marketplaces initially, that they were largely designed/built by the same developer or just simply feel that there's no hope for anything in DT Jax specifically?

[Adam White]

FWIW, all the adaptive reuse in the world won't help the Landing if it sits in a desert. Yes, London is a massive tourist destination, but Covent Garden market wouldn't thrive if it weren't in the middle of Covent Garden - which is a bustling, thriving area.

No one is saying that the Landing will become Covent Garden market - or that Jacksonville will become London. But the same basic principles apply.

[Wombley Womberly]

No one is saying that the Landing will become Covent Garden market - or that Jacksonville will become London. But the same basic principles apply.

Which basic principles apply in both instances?

[thelakelander]

The basic principles would be clustering pedestrian scale development and activity in a compact area around the Landing. The result would be more density and foot traffic to help support market rate development and business investment opportunities. The concept pretty much applies to rural towns just as much as it applies to a global metropolis. It doesn't mean you'll get same businesses in Covent Garden Market. However, you won't end up with dead spaces either.

[Wombley Womberly]

The basic principles would be clustering pedestrian scale development and activity in a compact area around the Landing. The result would be more density and foot traffic to help support market rate development and business investment opportunities. The concept pretty much applies to rural towns just as much as it applies to a global metropolis. It doesn't mean you'll get same businesses in Covent Garden Market. However, you won't end up with dead spaces either.

Covent Garden was an established urban area for centuries before the market was moved owing to traffic congestion concerns, and the repurposed main structure is utilized by millions of tourists annually, which is what makes it viable, as far as I know. It is a highly-prized residential address as well. Moreover, it is served by a variety of public transport options. What "live spaces" do you envision for the Jacksonville Landing, which possesses none of those characteristics?

[thelakelander]

The basic principles would be clustering pedestrian scale development and activity in a compact area around the Landing. The result would be more density and foot traffic to help support market rate development and business investment opportunities. The concept pretty much applies to rural towns just as much as it applies to a global metropolis. It doesn't mean you'll get same businesses in Covent Garden Market. However, you won't end up with dead spaces either.

My quote above describes the basic characteristics of clustering. This is how the concept manifested itself in Pensacola over the last couple of years:

Full article: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-lesson-for-jacksonville-pensacolas-palafox-street/

Before:


After:



Before:


After:

[thelakelander]

Here's how the concept has manifested itself in the form of a $5 million streetscape project in downtown Coral Gables in less time than Lenny Curry has been in office:

Full article: https://www.moderncities.com/article/2019-apr-the-makeover-of-giralda-plaza

Before:


After:




Before:


After:


In this particular case, existing buildings with occupied and vacant storefronts were utilized by making the street a place that attracts people and consistent programming of special events.

[Wombley Womberly]

Interesting.

Don't Coral Gables and Pensacola have significant tourist traffic that Jacksonville doesn't?

Who would patronize a renascent Jacksonville Landing?

[thelakelander]

Not that I'm aware of. The scenes pictured attract locals more than tourist. 

Regarding the Landing, it depends on what goes in it. Before being put out of business with the legal fight between COJ and former management, the Landing's restaurants did good business with the surrounding hotel guests and catering for various events. Some other businesses did fine because they didn't have to rely on foot traffic. So you'd likely be looking at some of the same types of businesses, with a different layout to provide them with more exposure to Independent Drive. I'd assume whatever opens in the future will have to appeal to the existing urban core population base as well, instead of hoping to attract tourist. IMO, ideally, a revamped center would be mixed use where the amount of retail/dining space would be reduced, allowing for complementing uses to fill the remaining space (i.e. revamp of Orlando's Church Street Station). Those complementing uses could be anything from a food hall or public market to a first class visitors center that the COJ is currently planning to squeeze in the back of the nearby performing arts center.