Covent Garden Market & What's Next For The Landing

[Tacachale]

As the mayor's office prepares to move forward with its plans to demolish the Jacksonville Landing, potentially setting the heart of downtown back by another generation, the Jaxson Magazine offers up another successful adaptive reuse example involving a similar structure: London's Covent Garden Market.

Read more: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/covent-garden-market-whats-next-for-the-landing/

[bl8jaxnative]

St. Paul, MN had some impatient urban hoarders up in arms when they went ahead with demoing some structurally sound, vaguely "historical" buildings.

http://www.startribune.com/ramsey-county-officials-mark-the-beginning-of-demolition-at-former-west-jail-sites/305544311/

The properties sat empty for years, decades since the jail closed.

And now, BAM!  Nearly a billion in development is ready to roll there because it's prime downtown land on the river.   

https://www.twincities.com/2019/07/23/downtown-st-paul-riverfront-project-presented-in-detail-along-with-788-million-cost/

[Tacachale]

St. Paul, MN had some impatient urban hoarders up in arms when they went ahead with demoing some structurally sound, vaguely "historical" buildings.

http://www.startribune.com/ramsey-county-officials-mark-the-beginning-of-demolition-at-former-west-jail-sites/305544311/

The properties sat empty for years, decades since the jail closed.

And now, BAM!  Nearly a billion in development is ready to roll there because it's prime downtown land on the river.   

https://www.twincities.com/2019/07/23/downtown-st-paul-riverfront-project-presented-in-detail-along-with-788-million-cost/

I'm sure demolition was the exact reason for that, and will be here too.

[Wombley Womberly]

London is London, and Jacksonville is not, and never will be. That's the difference.

[thelakelander]

Norfolk is Norfolk, Detroit is Detroit, Flint is Flint, Thomasville is Thomasville. Yet you can walk the street on a Saturday or Sunday and easily find a cup of coffee or multiple storefront retail spaces filled with places with consistent operating hours. No one said activate an entire city at street level. We're talking about a building. I've pretty sure we've shown enough examples at this point to prove that the size of a metropolitan area doesn't matter when it comes to activating a street at pedestrian level. It's time to stop the excuse making for why DT Jax is still empty.

[Wombley Womberly]

Norfolk is Norfolk, Detroit is Detroit, Flint is Flint, Thomasville is Thomasville. Yet you can walk the street on a Saturday or Sunday and easily find a cup of coffee or multiple storefront retail spaces filled with places with consistent operating hours. No one said activate an entire city at street level. We're talking about a building. I've pretty sure we've shown enough examples at this point to prove that the size of a metropolitan area doesn't matter when it comes to activating a street at pedestrian level. It's time to stop the excuse making for why DT Jax is still empty.

Perhaps the local culture, demographics, and climate aren't conducive to a venture like Covent Garden. London is one of the top tourist destinations in the world. Is it realistic to expect anything similar here?

[thelakelander]

^The local culture of Flint, Michigan isn't conductive to what can be done in London or Jacksonville. However, they still where able to convert a failed festival marketplace into a college building with offices/educational uses upstairs and ground floor retail (Barnes & Noble also serving as a college bookstore) and restaurants (food court serves students and downtown workers). In Toledo, their festival marketplace was converted into a museum and restaurant. In Norfolk, their festival marketplace was converted to a food hall and restaurants. In Tampa, their festival marketplace was converted into office space with a few destination restaurant spaces. In Orlando, their festival marketplace was converted into a tech incubator with a restaurants and bars in select spaces. Local culture doesn't equate to adaptive reuse not being an option for perfectly fine buildings. What city hall is doing is wasteful and not aligned with tried and true successful revitalization strategies over the last 30 years.

[Wombley Womberly]

^The local culture of Flint, Michigan isn't conductive to what can be done in London or Jacksonville. However, they still where able to convert a failed festival marketplace into a college building with offices/educational uses upstairs and ground floor retail (Barnes & Noble also serving as a college bookstore) and restaurants (food court serves students and downtown workers). In Toledo, their festival marketplace was converted into a museum and restaurant. In Norfolk, their festival marketplace was converted to a food hall and restaurants. In Tampa, their festival marketplace was converted into office space with a few destination restaurant spaces. In Orlando, their festival marketplace was converted into a tech incubator with a restaurants and bars in select spaces. Local culture doesn't equate to adaptive reuse not being an option for perfectly fine buildings. What city hall is doing is wasteful and not aligned with tried and true successful revitalization strategies over the last 30 years.

Perhaps you are right. Time will tell. Personally, I don't see a demand for core urban businesses in downtown Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

The answer has already been provided. We just kicked out 30 businesses. Now we'll celebrate 10 years from now once five finally open up on the same site after +$20 million spent in tax money. All of it is pure foolishness. We can also fill spaces with other uses (i.e. Flint turning a retail center into a higher education facility).

[Wombley Womberly]

We just kicked out 30.

If the Landing was popular and profitable, would that have happened?

[thelakelander]

If COJ was a partner with retail management as originally proposed, instead of actively trying to make the place fail, would we be in the same spot today?

[Wombley Womberly]

If COJ was a partner with retail management as originally proposed, instead of actively trying to make the place fail, would we be in the same spot today?

Perhaps, perhaps not. I've seen numerous reports detailing the decline of Jacksonville's downtown, including the Landing. What factors would lead me to conclude that a renaissance à la London's Covent Garden is realistic?

[thelakelander]

What factors would make you believe that there would be zero opportunity for adaptive reuse even if it were not retail? What would make you spend +$20 million in tax money to kick out businesses and demolish without first exploring other options and opportunities?

[Wombley Womberly]

What factors would make you believe that there would be zero opportunity for adaptive reuse even if it were not retail? What would make you spend +$20 million in tax money to kick out businesses and demolish without first exploring other options and opportunities?

Unless an investor is willing to pay for the site, what the authorities do with it is determined by the city government.

In the UK, investment capital is involved in Covent Garden as a profitable enterprise.

https://quoteddata.com/2019/07/capital-counties-pulls-trigger-covent-garden-demerger/

Is there a similar group of financiers interested in the Landing?

[thelakelander]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I've seen numerous reports detailing the decline of Jacksonville's downtown, including the Landing.

Do you go downtown and if so, how often?

What factors would lead me to conclude that a renaissance à la London's Covent Garden is realistic?

The success stories of Flint, Tampa, Orlando, Toledo and Norfolk.