Proposed redevelopment for CenterState Bank property in Riverside scrapped

[Steve]

Gotta say, I am kind of happy to see the critical comments about RAP.  I personally have a higher level of disdain for them than the average bear, to the point that I would probably help work with a counter-group that was pro-growth, pro-density, and pro-affordable housing.  Since the area is one of the top destinations for millennials in the country it probably wouldn't be hard to get them all aboard.  They are being misrepresented by RAP.

What exactly is your axe to grind? I still don't understand your beef other than this project?

[JeffreyS]

I was at a holiday party during luminaria in my neighborhood Avondale.  We were talking about this project likely not going forward. Five different home owners from the area all thought RAP was wrong to oppose this.  I wonder if RAP may be getting a bit out of touch.  Wonderful group but sometimes I think other than chain stores they have suburb envy. I am not sure how high the proposed building were.

Not sure I agree. Having been on the RAP board for 6 years and a former resident of Riverside, I tend to think that RAP actually has a good pulse n the neighborhood. Personally, I don't mind density but the neighborhood clearly isn't a fan. Plus, the project wasn't exactly mindblowing. There are like 5 streets in all of Riverside and Avondale (excluding the "Urban Transition Area" which is basically everything east of 5 Points) that really scream retail and this was one of them.

RAP has a reputation that if a project is killed in the neighborhood, the project was amazing and RAP sucks. In my time on the board there were definitely some things that RAP got wrong (some at the time I thought were wrong decisions, some I thought were the right decisions but hindsight shows maybe they weren't). This I thought they got right.

First of all in that post I said RAP was a wonderful group not that they suck and I hadn't seen the proposal.  I will clarify what I mean about suburb envy. It was most specifically about density.  I think they worry a little more about cars than they should near the retail/ dinning clusters.  I am a fan of RAP though I disagree with some decisions now and then.

[DrQue]

I was at a holiday party during luminaria in my neighborhood Avondale.  We were talking about this project likely not going forward. Five different home owners from the area all thought RAP was wrong to oppose this.  I wonder if RAP may be getting a bit out of touch.  Wonderful group but sometimes I think other than chain stores they have suburb envy. I am not sure how high the proposed building were.

Not sure I agree. Having been on the RAP board for 6 years and a former resident of Riverside, I tend to think that RAP actually has a good pulse n the neighborhood. Personally, I don't mind density but the neighborhood clearly isn't a fan. Plus, the project wasn't exactly mindblowing. There are like 5 streets in all of Riverside and Avondale (excluding the "Urban Transition Area" which is basically everything east of 5 Points) that really scream retail and this was one of them.

Why exactly does this spot scream retail? King Street and the intersection at Park and King seem to provide plenty of retail, some of which could use some TLC. When you have eyesores like the Panda House and its gas station neighbor, I don't get the need to force more retail on the area. Apartments would increase the population and foot traffic, which would likely lead to reinvestment in existing retail laggards.

[Steve]

I was at a holiday party during luminaria in my neighborhood Avondale.  We were talking about this project likely not going forward. Five different home owners from the area all thought RAP was wrong to oppose this.  I wonder if RAP may be getting a bit out of touch.  Wonderful group but sometimes I think other than chain stores they have suburb envy. I am not sure how high the proposed building were.

Not sure I agree. Having been on the RAP board for 6 years and a former resident of Riverside, I tend to think that RAP actually has a good pulse n the neighborhood. Personally, I don't mind density but the neighborhood clearly isn't a fan. Plus, the project wasn't exactly mindblowing. There are like 5 streets in all of Riverside and Avondale (excluding the "Urban Transition Area" which is basically everything east of 5 Points) that really scream retail and this was one of them.

Why exactly does this spot scream retail? King Street and the intersection at Park and King seem to provide plenty of retail, some of which could use some TLC. When you have eyesores like the Panda House and its gas station neighbor, I don't get the need to force more retail on the area. Apartments would increase the population and foot traffic, which would likely lead to reinvestment in existing retail laggards.

All things considered, there aren't many commercial streets in the neighborhood. This is one of them and it's walking distance from one of the busiest intersections in the neighborhood.

[MusicMan]

This project could be amazing, with retail and a nice SMALL walk in bank + ATM.  But you gotta have (at least) 200 units to make it work. I would think the commercial business owners within a few blocks would love that added density.

[jaxnyc79]

From ResidentNews on the community meeting concerning the Centerbank property redevelopment:

More than 70 people had attended the November meeting, where primary concerns centered around mass (too many units), scale (building height) and lack of retail on the King Street side. "I want to see more retail. No one expects to see an apartment complex in the middle of a business district," said David Joudi, owner of Riverside Liquors on King Street.

Who's this David Joudi guy?  Apartment complex in the middle of a business district...has this guy ever heard of mixed use development?  How many people in Riverside-Avondale live in this sort of bubble?

It would be great to see a gas station or Family Dollar there:).

[Steve]

David Joudi has owner Riverside Liquors for approximately 500 years (not really, but a while for sure). Personally, I agree with him.

While I didn't hear the context, I bet he was talking about the first floor.

[jaxnyc79]

David Joudi has owner Riverside Liquors for approximately 500 years (not really, but a while for sure). Personally, I agree with him.

While I didn't hear the context, I bet he was talking about the first floor.

oh dear, the liquor store guy and his lines that just can't be crossed for the good of the neighborhood...

[thelakelander]

There's likely some challenges with this site. Assuming street level retail is desired, you'll likely need a certain number of minimum units, structured parking and building height much higher than 45 feet to make the development numbers work.

[jaxnyc79]

There's likely some challenges with this site. Assuming street level retail is desired, you'll likely need a certain number of minimum units, structured parking and building height much higher than 45 feet to make the development numbers work.

OK, so say this parcel sits vacant for the next 12 years because the neighbors would rather have that over scale intensification, what's stopping this developer from a similar project on the numerous empty lots in Brooklyn, LaVilla, etc?  Apart from how the places are branded/widely perceived, geographically they're quite proximal. Surely the same concept could go up in Brooklyn under the branding "Riverside East or Five Points East," and would anyone really know the difference?  Plus, city incentives may be in order. 

The more neighborhoods like Riverside/Avondale/San Marco there are to reject intense uses alongside their single-family historic structures, the more developers have only downtown as the option for scale intensification, no?  That should work in downtown's favor in the medium-to-long term?

[Steve]

David Joudi has owner Riverside Liquors for approximately 500 years (not really, but a while for sure). Personally, I agree with him.

While I didn't hear the context, I bet he was talking about the first floor.

oh dear, the liquor store guy and his lines that just can't be crossed for the good of the neighborhood...

He's been in the neighborhood for quite a long time and a good dude. Riverside Liquors was on Park St in 5 Points forever, until (my understanding) they raised rent. He took the opportunity to expand his place by moving to King. Definitely a neighborhood staple, plus he's quite a charitable guy.

Plus, when it comes to the ground floor I agree with him. The highest and best use is retail on the ground floor of King. Plus, I'm guessing you can charge more for a retail space per SqFt than a residential unit.

[thelakelander]

There's likely some challenges with this site. Assuming street level retail is desired, you'll likely need a certain number of minimum units, structured parking and building height much higher than 45 feet to make the development numbers work.

OK, so say this parcel sits vacant for the next 12 years because the neighbors would rather have that over scale intensification, what's stopping this developer from a similar project on the numerous empty lots in Brooklyn, LaVilla, etc?

Basically the same thing that's not stopping the developer from doing their project in Charlotte, Austin, Orlando, Chicago or Mexico City......nothing. Short of a few people like Dan Gilbert, most developers are in the business to make money, not make a certain city or neighborhood walkable. They don't owe Jax anything.

[JeffreyS]

David is a good guy not sure why he would be singled out of the 70.  I think mixed use with four stories along the King street side of the block with parking on the west side of the lot would fit perfectly.

[JeffreyS]

Just read the article sounds like the real concerns were parking and traffic and the wish to be oakleaf with old homes.

[jaxnyc79]

There's likely some challenges with this site. Assuming street level retail is desired, you'll likely need a certain number of minimum units, structured parking and building height much higher than 45 feet to make the development numbers work.

OK, so say this parcel sits vacant for the next 12 years because the neighbors would rather have that over scale intensification, what's stopping this developer from a similar project on the numerous empty lots in Brooklyn, LaVilla, etc?

Basically the same thing that's not stopping the developer from doing their project in Charlotte, Austin, Orlando, Chicago or Mexico City......nothing. Short of a few people like Dan Gilbert, most developers are in the business to make money, not make a certain city or neighborhood walkable. They don't owe Jax anything.

I don't understand if you're speaking in response to my post or making a general statement about profit motive.  My point was that if that area of riverside doesn't want residential intensity, perhaps the development team can be redirected to Brooklyn.