A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[thelakelander]

I think the Courthouse is a better site for the convention center but I don't think it being in the stadium district is a huge problem. The distance isn't that long. Off the top of my head, New Orleans convention center is about the same distance from the French Quarter. Dublin's convention center is farther from the city center along the river.

I don't think New Orleans is a good example. Downtown sits in the middle of the French Quarter and the convention center. It's also directly across the street from the warehouse district, which is livelier than anything in all of the Northbank.  Even excluding those things, there's Harrah's Casino, the Outlet Collection at Riverwalk (their version of the Landing) and an aquarium forming a continuous line of pedestrian scale activity between the convention center and the French Quarter. I'll admit I'm not too familiar with Dublin but something tells me it's a hell of a lot denser than Jax. So while distance may be similar the level of pedestrian scale activity and built density is night and day to the 28 Days Later environment characterized by the JSO office, jail, Maxwell House and the vacant Shipyards property.

[thelakelander]

...At any rate, I don't know exactly how this complex is being designed or where various gathering places and exhibition spaces will sit, it's merely a guess at how this might work...as we are all guessing.  I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.

Distance combined with activity at the pedestrian level is one thing. Distance combined with dead space is another. Context is what's key in the have and the have nots.  If we're seriously considering Metropolitan Park as a new convention center location, I'm not sure it makes much sense to move it from the Prime Osborn. We'd literally accomplish nothing except of helping create a new node of isolated activity on the other side of downtown, at the expense of what could be a great synergy anchor for the actual historic core....except in this case, the Skyway doesn't connect the two.

[jaxnyc79]

Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river.  Also, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees.  In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.

The center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary.  That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein, with its security concerns and supplements.

Again, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive.  We're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified.  Metro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it?  The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?

[RiversideRambler]

I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.

This. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.

When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.

[thelakelander]

Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river.

I don't think this is a good reason to spend over $100 million on a convention center.  If we're going to invest that type of public capital on a project like this, it needs to be in the best position to stimulate additional economic benefit...not only in terms of future development but also existing businesses, residents and development.

Also, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees.  In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.

I'm not debating the need for investment in a convention facility. I'm questioning the need to spend millions in a manner that limits spin-off economic opportunity.

The center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary.  That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein.

Definitely not buying this. This is grasping at straws. Nothing at the courthouse site is paralyzing the CBD or the "dense" residential complexes therein.  Quite frankly, it is on the edge of the actual downtown core.

Again, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive.

Take a look at this plan. The entrance (#2) aligns with Franklin Street. You can see the stadium parking lot across the street. The building turns its back to downtown (notice location of truck docks #3) and Gator Bowl Boulevard.

We're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified.

We're where we were in 2006. A slew of highly conceptual proposals coming on line with an upcoming recession following to kill most of the ones that don't break ground within the next year or so.

Metro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it?  The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?

See graphics above. Metro Park was once a part of the shipyards complex that originally lined Bay Street. However, technically it's just east of what we call the shipyards today and roughly right across the street from the stadium and its adjacent parking lots.

[thelakelander]

I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.

This. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.

When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.

I believe when we're talking about maximizing public investment things aren't as simple as saying someone will Uber. Isn't the major goal of all the downtown revitalization talk is actual revitalization of downtown? Also aren't places we associate with vibrancy strongly linked to walkability and pedestrian scale interaction?  Just look at your own post above in bold. If these things are true, why would we not value them in the planning process of every downtown revitalization project we take on?  Why spend millions on things that go against the nature of what people prefer in urban environments?

One of the most frustrating things about Jacksonville is that we don't learn from our past mistakes. We've burnt hundreds of millions on the name of downtown revitalization since the 1960s and we're still not there yet because our investments have been spread too thin to create the synergy needed at the human scale level.

[jaxnyc79]

Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river.

I don't think this is a good reason to spend over $100 million on a convention center.  If we're going to invest that type of public capital on a project like this, it needs to be in the best position to stimulate additional economic benefit...not only in terms of future development but also existing businesses, residents and development.

Also, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees.  In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.

I'm not debating the need for investment in a convention facility. I'm questioning the need to spend millions in a manner that limits spin-off economic opportunity.

The center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary.  That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein.

Definitely not buying this. This is grasping at straws. Nothing at the courthouse site is paralyzing the CBD or the "dense" residential complexes therein.  Quite frankly, it is on the edge of the actual downtown core.

Again, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive.

Take a look at this plan. The entrance (#2) aligns with Franklin Street. You can see the stadium parking lot across the street. The building turns its back to downtown (notice location of truck docks #3) and Gator Bowl Boulevard.

We're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified.

We're where we were in 2006. A slew of highly conceptual proposals coming on line with an upcoming recession following to kill most of the ones that don't break ground within the next year or so.

Metro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it?  The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?

See graphics above. Metro Park was once a part of the shipyards complex that originally lined Bay Street. However, technically it's just east of what we call the shipyards today and roughly right across the street from the stadium and its adjacent parking lots.

Don't have time to parse your parsing:), but your tone of "if it can't be at the courthouse site and will instead be at the Shipyards, leave it at Prime Osborn instead," is just an over-reaction in my opinion.  As for questioning a new convention center as a downtown priority, irrespective of whether it's at the Shipyards or Courthouse, well I completely agree.  I was annoyed by the RFP.  Downtown is dull and does not sell well at all to outsiders, but that's changing.  Let Downtown evolve a bit more and become a credible enticement to outsiders, and then let's take the convention center idea a bit more seriously.  But hey, if Shad Khan sees something I'm not seeing, or if he plans to build a center and all these other elements of his 2.5BN dollar vision all at the same time, well then now could be the time.  But yes, I've seen the splashy plans from Iguana before, and I've learned to take them with a grain of salt.  Again, my point is that the Courthouse site could be a clustered low-to-mid-rise mixed-use community on the waterfront, and I'd be very happy with that as well. 
Sidebar: No more high-rises/towers on the waterfront, please.

[billy]

If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?

[thelakelander]

Jaxnyc79, you don't have to parse but at least understand that the Khan's convention center location is one mile east of what most historically associate as being downtown, not 1/4 mile as mentioned in an earlier post.

I wouldn't classify my opinion as an overreaction. It's more of a realization that the environment people are being sold on won't materialize if we don't change and begin implementing investments in a coordinated manner to achieve a long time vision.

Also, yes I feel that if we're going to seriously consider a convention center at TIAA Bank Field, I'd question if it's more warranted than renovating and expanding the Prime Osborn. Of course my opinion can change if Khan is funding it himself to increase the value of his surrounding investments. However, we all know COJ will be asked to subsidize that vision to the tune of millions. If we're tossing public money into it, then the ROI should consider the core point of the decade plus talk of the Prime Osborn being a bad location.

[thelakelander]

If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?

Another great question. Seems like a big waste of money to tear these buildings down without a plan. Save the demo money and figure this convention center thing out first. Assuming a convention center goes elsewhere, RFP the property and see what materializes. Neither of those structures are in danger of falling down and there may be proposals that consider various forms of reuse or things we're not currently imagining.

[jaxnyc79]

thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.

I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).   

[jaxnyc79]

If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?

Could do that - save the 8.5 million in funds for demolition and see if anyone has plans for the space.

[KenFSU]

This. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.

When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.

^Per the 2017 DIA Study, these are the reasons that meeting planners aren't choosing Jacksonville:

SAG conducted interviews and surveys with more than 40 meeting planners about Jacksonville's viability as a convention destination. More than 80 percent of those interviewed said that Jacksonville was "not on the radar" as a large meeting or convention destination.

Much of that was based on the perception that Jacksonville lacks key criteria sought by convention planners.

The report cited "walkability, lack of sufficient hotel package, airlift, the need to 'clean up' downtown, safety and the overall lack of 'things to do' " as challenges. Also cited was a "lack of restaurants, attractions and retail."

Those surveyed indicated that Jacksonville should maximize the St. Johns River to create an experience unique to the city.

Source: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/a-new-jacksonville-convention-center-is-downtown-ready

Whether it's on the Courthouse site, or in the Sports Complex, or at the Prime Osborne, or wherever, in order to be successful, any convention center that we build in Jacksonville has to have 1) a close proximity to amenities, and 2) a unique value proposition to make it stand out from the 28 other convention centers in Florida and 255 nationwide.

To me, if we can't build a convention center that's closely linked to nightlife & entertainment and that brings something to the table unique from the rest of the competition, it's not even worth it to start.

There's no gun to our head.

If - and this is a big, unfounded, completely unknown if - the city makes the decision to get behind the Cordish development and go all-in on the sports complex as our "downtown" entertainment district, I disagree with the contention that it's an easy walk from the Courthouse site to the entertainment district. .8 miles is a ten block, 16-18 minute walk at a leisurely pace, in Florida heat, in business casual and/or heels. I think you'd need some kind of a way to quickly and conveniently move conventioneers back and forth between the convention center and the sports complex.

I also think 10 times out of 10, unless Khan is dumping so much of his own money into a Shipyards convention center that we can't possibly say no, having the convention center at the Courthouse site and potentially losing some entertainment to the stadium complex is far preferable to having a convention center at the stadium complex and hoping that attendees make their way into the CBD. If you build at the Shipyards, the convention center becomes an island unto itself and the vast majority of attendees never travel further west than the Shipyards. It could be really successful, but all the positive externalities on the downtown core would likely be lost.

Smartest play right now though is to do nothing, including demo, while we figure the rest of our shit out first.

We could gain so much more clarity on how to best proceed with a convention center if we had clarity on a dozen other projects and how they all fit together.

- The Landing's future (will it remain entertainment & nightlife, or be bulldozed into nothing?)
- JTA's future Skyway (how will we move people around downtown once a convention center is built?)
- Lot J (will Cordish's Jacksonville Live! entertainment hub be built, or turn into just another render that gets refreshed every 2 years)
- The USS Adams (will it actually be turned into a floating museum in the vicinity of the Courthouse site)
- Berkman 2 (will the massive hotel and entertainment complex materialize? Are Dave and Buster REALLY on steroids?)
- Shipyards remediation (how much f*cking money would it even take to make the Shipyards development-ready? We still don't know)
- JEA relocation (is JEA propping up downtown with a four-block mixed use development, or taking their talents to Lot J?)
- The Doro District (what's the status of the entertainment district being planned for the old Doro Fixtures buildings?)
- Lori Boyer's Riverwalk plans (what's planned for the rest of the interactive & entertainment nodes? where will the funding come from?)
- The Hart Bridge Ramp removal (when are they coming down? How are they coming down? What portions are coming down?)
- All the new hotel projects (will Laura Street and the surrounding blocks fully develop into a restaurant and rooftop-bar laden hotel district as currently planned?)

Everything seems to be happening in a vacuum.

Also, I spent the afternoon at City Hall.

Just listening to people talk, it's kind of scary how quickly the narrative has changed in the last 24 hours to, "it's going to be hard for anyone to beat Khan."

[Charles Hunter]

thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.

I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).   

Looking at the Iguana rendering, the entrance to the Convention Center is opposite the eastern end of the existing retention pond, that will have a parking garage built over it, east of WTLV.  This is about two-tenths to a quarter mile east of Intuition.  This is based on the drawing provided, and what we are discussing, and not a different, hypothetical, CC opposite Intuition. If I remember correctly, the Hart Ramp south of Intuition will remain, and a loop ramp added to A.P.Randolph/Gator Bowl Blvd., to connect west to Duval/Monroe/Adams/Forsyth (either vehicular or pedestrian/bike).

[jaxnyc79]

I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal.  I go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed.  In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex.  Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town.  Let's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows.  So if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great.  But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing.  The Landing?  The Elbow?  Frankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district.  There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize.  So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.

I'm all for a revitalized CBD, but that might be office high-rises with low vacancy rates - that would still be vitality but likely pretty dull at night.  So yeah, what corridor in Downtown Jax is being targeted as the entertainment/party PULSE of downtown.  If it's the stretch of buildings along Bay Street across from Berkman, that's really not that far at all from a site at the Shipyards. 

Brings me back to my original point that the convention center RFP was a waste of DIA time and resources.