WHAT DO YOU THINK? The 10 worst transportation decisions in Jacksonville...

[Ocklawaha]

We've all heard the crying, dumb ideas, bad projects, and knuckle-head graft... If you could think of your own list of the 10 worst transportation decisions ever made in Jacksonville, what would they be?

1. Closing of Union Terminal as a railroad passenger station - then allowing the Prime to be built there.
2. Abandonment of the entire Jacksonville Traction Company streetcar system.
3. Building the Skyway rather then light rail
4. Not finishing the Skyway leaving it crippled for life
5. Preservation of the of the original Acosta Bridge or Fuller Warren in whole or part as park space.
6. Failure to buy the FEC RY to the beach along Beach Blvd. and hence Mayport as proposed to the City.
7. Turning down British Air on a new international route, keeping JIA a tiny aerodrome.
8. Failure to complete the Hart Expressway all the way to JTB
9. Failure to finish the interchange or MLK-Haines St. Expy, or to reach Talleyrand with the same.
10. Proposing to spend more on BRT, just another name for the city bus, then 26 miles of monorail or streetcar would cost.

THAT'S MY LIST! What's yours?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

1. Elimination of streetcar system (first move that led to low density development)

2. The Jacksonville Expressway System layout (eliminated connectivity in the old urban core)

3. Timuquana bridge or tunnel (should have found a way to get this one built decades ago)

4. The Dames Point Bridge structure (handicaps port)

5. Prime Osborn Convention Center/Union Terminal (this place should have remained a train station)

6. Elimination of typical street grid layout for arterial road system and cul-de-sac subdivisions.

7. Paving over rail to make Beach Blvd. (could have had a stronger connection between the beach and downtown)

8. Hart Bridge Expressway (should have taken it, at least on to Southside Blvd.  This is our road version of the Skyway)

9. The Skyway (could have had light rail from downtown to airport for the same cost)

10. Demolition of old Acosta/Fuller Warren Bridges (both could have been an excellent structures for cycling, pedestrian and mass transit use)

[thelakelander]

I would also add the Downtown traffic loop network to the list.  Because of this, our downtown is one of the few big city cores that does not have a traditional Main Street commercial corridor running through it.

[Tripoli1711]

I cannot think of 10 because all of the good ones are taken.  I just wanted to comment that the Hart Bridge Expressway statements by both of you are spot on.  I used to take it downtown to work every day.  I always thought it was a fantastic road that amazingly a lot of people seem to not use or fully appreciate, but it should have been extended at least to Southside.  I never knew there was a potential or a plan to have it run all the way to JTB, but that would have been pretty great.  Also, severing Springfield from Downtown with the way State and Union are used is pretty bad.  If the Warehouse district expanding Northward ever took off, I think not extending Wonderwood over the river would be on a future list of this sort.

[DemocraticNole]

They should have extended the Hart Bridge Expressway for sure. Also, they should change the name to Jaguar Freeway, since it dumps traffic right at the stadium. Hart Bridge Expressway just seems so bland and boring. I wish Jax would name more of its freeways.

I think another thing that goes unnoticed is the lack of adequate planning for the Orange Park area. All of the development there can essentially only be accessed by two roads: US 17 and Blanding. They should have had a better layout before allowing all of that development down there.

[Charles Hunter]

We've all heard the crying, dumb ideas, bad projects, and knuckle-head graft... If you could think of your own list of the 10 worst transportation decisions ever made in Jacksonville, what would they be?

1. Closing of Union Terminal as a railroad passenger station - then allowing the Prime to be built there.
2. Abandonment of the entire Jacksonville Traction Company streetcar system.
3. Building the Skyway rather then light rail
4. Not finishing the Skyway leaving it crippled for life
5. Preservation of the of the original Acosta Bridge or Fuller Warren in whole or part as park space.
6. Failure to buy the FEC RY to the beach along Beach Blvd. and hence Mayport as proposed to the City.
7. Turning down British Air on a new international route, keeping JIA a tiny aerodrome.
8. Failure to complete the Hart Expressway all the way to JTB
9. Failure to finish the interchange or MLK-Haines St. Expy, or to reach Talleyrand with the same.
10. Proposing to spend more on BRT, just another name for the city bus, then 26 miles of monorail or streetcar would cost.

THAT'S MY LIST! What's yours?
OCKLAWAHA

Am familiar with most of these, and don't disagree ... but #6 and #7?
#6 (also thelakelander's #7) When the JM&P (FEC to the Beach) went out of business, who was it offered for sale to?
#7  When did British Air offer a direct flight to JIA?  I've never heard this (not surprising, Ock knows all)  Was it a local, or a US Customs, decision not to provide service here?

We talk about the "footprint" of transportation a lot here - even lake's #2 (Jax Expressway cut off connectivity) addresses this.  The new Acosta Bridge was built on top of the location of the old one.  Preserving the Old Acosta, it seems it would have caused a wider impact on the north and southbanks.  Goodbye CSX parking lot.  Goodbye River City Brewing.  Would have to go downstream, as the FECRR bridge is upstream.  The Fuller Warren, yeah, the City should've accepted the little piece left as a public pier.

[thelakelander]

While visiting the skyway yard last week, the amount of land wasted under the Acosta Bridge ramps really stands out.  Regarding footprint, I think that's just it.  If we had set up a comprehensive vision that could survive through mayoral administration changes, what's to say the new Acosta had to be built exactly on top of the old one?  If we really thought about walkability, would we still have built the insane number of ramps where the Acosta meets Riverside Avenue? 

So assuming we valued urban planning as much as highway planning, CSX's parking needs could have been figured out (perhaps a combination of garage and under bridge parking) and a new bridge could have been designed.  Instead of being a straight line, it could have ran immediately to the north and shifted back over the old (current) path once it reached the Southbank, if there was no interest in improving the River City Brewing site.

As for Beach, it would be a great asset to have a rail link directly connecting Downtown with Jax Beach today.  Its something would have made the Southside more sustainable from the start.  We had that at one time.  If we wanted it today, it would cost us a couple of billion dollars.  This is why I'd have to put it somewhere in my top 10 list.

[Ocklawaha]

Am familiar with most of these, and don't disagree ... but #6 and #7?
#6 (also thelakelander's #7) When the JM&P (FEC to the Beach) went out of business, who was it offered for sale to?
#7  When did British Air offer a direct flight to JIA?  I've never heard this (not surprising, Ock knows all)  Was it a local, or a US Customs, decision not to provide service here?

Here's the skinny on the two weird deals:

Wasn't the JM&P that was offered, the JM&P was the hard luck standard gauge road that ran from Arlington to Hanna Park, then North and South to Mayport and Pablo Beach. It didn't survive beyond early 1900. The Jacksonville and Atlantic J&A, was a wealthy little narrow gauge line that went straight down what is today the North side of Beach Blvd. It was so ingrained in the City that most of our names come from it! Hodges Bl? Hodges Station. Saint Nicholas? etc... It was sold to Flagler and turned into a standard gauge sub-division of the Florida East Coast. At Jax Beach museum, the train (while not from this railroad) sits ON the railroad, this is why the side road angles like it does. After FEC switched to oil burning steam locomotives, they no longer needed the old coal docks at Mayport. Traffic on the line crashed, and the new road killed most passenger business. The railroad FEC offered it to the City through a deal outlined by City Commisisioner St. Elmo Acosta, who wanted to convert it to an electric interurban extension of Jacksonville Traction.

BA was going to add a tri-weekly flight to Tampa with a first stop in JACKSONVILLE. Jacksonville is the US HQ and call center for the company and they wanted to make it easy to shuttle people back and forth. JIA wasn't done playing with the terminals and didn't want to bend to allow their new entry. There was also a squabble over runway length, as BA wanted to fly a big jet out of here and didn't like the 8,000 and 10,000 foot combination for a full fuel load take off. Only one runway would have been usable making for tricky landings when the wind shifts. JIA-JAA went deaf and the deal died. The flight survives however - NON-STOP from London to Tampa. We blew it. Oh and now SW Florida Intl, AND the new Panama City Intl, are both being offered a host of international flights. Perhaps our guys can't see the sun from the position of their heads?

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

I know we could have done better than the skyway with the money but wasn't the federal money only on the table for the skyway project?

[thelakelander]

For that particular project.  However, back in those days cities could take interstate money and shift it to rail, if they wanted to.  This is how Portland got their light rail system off the ground.

[Seraphs]

Moving the train station was in my opinion the number one blunder.  I agree with most of what the others had to say.  One other thing that bugs me (probably doesn't qualify)  is the decision to build the Dames Point without the pedestrian walkways.  That would have been awesome.  Also the Dames Point should have been about 50' or more higher.

[Ocklawaha]

Wow, you only named 2 but they could count as all 5 each of the worst decisions. Dames Point was nearly a revolution led by a tiny supermarket owner activist in MANDARIN. I used to shop there but "Joe Curry" and I would lock horns on the bridge. He put the city through hell and back to get it done and had quite an army of followers. Walks or Bikeways on that thing would be amazing!

Union Station - was the worst #1 disaster ever.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

10 Too many one way streets downtown.
9 Not including full clover leaf exits from 295 to Blanding, 17, San Jose and Old St. Augustine rd.
8 Making Union and State practical freeways.
7 Making Main Street a practical freeway.
6 Building the skyway.
5 Not completing the skyway.
4 Converting Union Station into a Convention center.
3 Building the Dames point to low or not making it a tunnel.
2 Not building the timmaquana to jtb bridge.
1 Dismantling the Streetcar system.

[Timkin]

10-The I-10/95 Merger
9- The Route Chosen to develop the Jacksonville Expressway / I-95 practically dividing the City and causing the needless demolition of much of it.
8- No Bridge from Timiquana to JTB...so We either Loop North then South or South then North to get from Ortega to the Beaches
7- Not completing the Skyway ,since it was elected to be built. Can I just mention its unsightliness along Hogan to the Station which now Dead-ends Hogan@ Union.
6- Building the Skyway , never intending to finish it.
5- Total demolition of the first thoroughfare drawbridge crossing the River into Downtown, and instead of using the center span as a piece in a Park, spending a hell of alot more money to take it out and litter the Ocean with it.
4-Parking Meters, Surface Parking and One-way streets in Downtown.
3-Doing away with Union Station as a Train Terminal and sealing the underground Tunnels. STUPID.
2-Putting an Amtrak Station in a really Sketchy Area of Jacksonville
1-Doing away with most every other means of transportation in the city, other than that with rubber tires and Fuel-Powered. (With the exception of the Skyway which really covers very little of the city, in the big picture)

[stjr]

Don't forget a few more candidates:

(1) Giving JTA responsibility for both roads and mass transit
(2) Building the original JIA in 1968 on the cheap, letting Atlanta and Tampa blow by us in air connections to be followed by Orlando and Charlotte.
(3) Letting half of Blount Island get sold to Offshore Power Systems for $1 preventing its inclusion in the port's infrastructure and then watching Herb Peyton sell it to the Marines for over $100 million forever removing it from the port's control.
(4) Failing to get direct interstate connections to Atlanta and/or Gainesville/Tampa
(5) Not making the Fuller Warren replacement a "signature" bridge
(6) Not building 9A with at least 6 lanes (if not 8 lanes)
(7)The JTB/I95 interchange and surrounding JTB exits.
(8 ) Failure to provide adequate bike and pedestrian pathways
(9)Not building a downtown cruise terminal (even if for smaller intracoastal "cruise" ships).
(10) Failure to buy adequate land for Craig Field to buffer it from residential encroachment.
(11) The junction of the Arlington Expressway, Atlantic Blvd., and Southside Boulevards.

How about adding to the list additional disasters in the making:
(1) The proposed JTA intermodal center
(2) The Outer Beltway
(3) BRT
(4) 9B

Maybe we should add letting the Mandarin miniature train go out of business   .

I agree with most of the rest of the items listed above.  The negative impacts of the Skyway and the location/elevation of the Dames Point Bridge were both predicted by critics which makes these decisions guilty with aggravating circumstances.  Failure to build full cloverleafs for all our interstate interchanges or at least stockpile land to add them later when growth comes is just plain boneheaded too.  Now, we have tens of thousands of cars waiting at traffic lights.

Do we ever learn?