Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018

[Kerry]

Sure they contribute to quality of life and maybe to some extent economic development (although when factoring in opportunity cost - that is probably a negative).  I guess my big issue is, why can't they do it without public subsidies?

Khan is buying Wimble Stadium for nearly a billion dollars - maybe Jax should offer him a package deal for the Stadium, Daily Place, practice field, and parking lots - $300 million and he gets the whole thing and all the revenue and expenses.

[Lostwave]

Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.

Well, I kind of look at all the Khan enterprises as a collective unit.  They are only divided up for contract, tax and accounting reasons but for all practical purposes - they are all one entity.  They all have the same mission.

Fair enough...

And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

But above is my quote you were trying to debunk.  FL/GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Jam, random soccer games etc, have nothing to do with the thing you call "Khan Enterprises" (I don't think that is a thing, but I will run with it)  The city runs those and makes money from those, not the Jags.  You took my quote and posted another quote from the newspaper that is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.  That is all. 

To your point (which, again had nothing to do with my point), yes Bold Events makes money from the amphitheater.  Yes the Jags use the Practice Facility.  But the city owns and runs all the buildings, and the Jags contribute a lot to those buildings (paid 50%).  This is a partnership that helps everyone. 

[jaxjags]

Sure glad Kerry didn't live in Jax in 1989.

[Steve]

It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we're talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ's contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

[Steve]

Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.

Well, I kind of look at all the Khan enterprises as a collective unit.  They are only divided up for contract, tax and accounting reasons but for all practical purposes - they are all one entity.  They all have the same mission.

Fair enough...

And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

But above is my quote you were trying to debunk.  FL/GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Jam, random soccer games etc, have nothing to do with the thing you call "Khan Enterprises" (I don't think that is a thing, but I will run with it)  The city runs those and makes money from those, not the Jags.  You took my quote and posted another quote from the newspaper that is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.  That is all. 

To your point (which, again had nothing to do with my point), yes Bold Events makes money from the amphitheater.  Yes the Jags use the Practice Facility.  But the city owns and runs all the buildings, and the Jags contribute a lot to those buildings (paid 50%).  This is a partnership that helps everyone. 

That is 100% correct. Those events aren't run whatsoever by the Jaguars or the "evil Mr. Khan"

[Kerry]

The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .

[Kerry]

Sure glad Kerry didn't live in Jax in 1989.

It wouldn't have mattered.  I am vastly out numbered either way

[Steve]

While I'd certainly wouldn't mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don't want to be in Richmond's or Norfolk's shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

Maybe their lack of economic growth is because they're in VA. Or maybe it's because they start with letters that come later in the alphabet. Both 'hypothoses' are just as reasonable as randomly assuming that the presence of a professional football team is the reason for purported better growth on the part of Jax.

"The" reason for growth? Definitely not, nor did I ever (or would ever) say that. A catalyst that plays a role? I think it would be hard to argue otherwise. The area gets, by a rough calculation, 50 hours a year of TV commercials, which doesn't include social, radio, etc. I think any company would take that.

Now, to be fair: I'm not talking about regions that spend a billion dollars on a stadium in one shot. That you really could never justify.

By my math, the COJ has spent $153M in the last 25 years (excluding Jaguars' contributions)
$53M in 1994-5 (to build)
$12M in 2002-4
$43M in 2013 (scoreboards, north end zone, pools)
$45M in 2015 (Daily's Place Flex Field, Clubs)

Compared to other cities, that's really not bad.

[Steve]

The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .

The the city would get much less each year from Florida-Georgia, and then Downtown's benefit from those events are at risk. I'd love to see how that makes sense.

[Steve]

The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .

Also. The stadium is unuseable because of the Jags about 12 days a year, the city was in serious jeopardy of losing the Florida-Georgia game before the Jags came due to the fact that the place was in disrepair.

Also, Monster Jam didn't move to the Arena. There is a second smaller show called Triple Threat that will be in the Arena. The main show is stil at the stadium (was in March)

[JBTripper]

Kerry doesn't like a thing, and everyone else is stupid for liking that thing he doesn't like.

If the city has spent $153 million over 25 years, that comes to about $7 per Duval County resident each year. That's a lot cheaper than cancer.

[Kerry]

The the city would get much less each year from Florida-Georgia, and then Downtown's benefit from those events are at risk. I'd love to see how that makes sense.

Easily made up for in property taxes on the facilities.  Alas, I seriously doubt Khan would want to buy them, but I would like to see the City make the offer just the same.

[Kerry]

Kerry doesn't like a thing, and everyone else is stupid for liking that thing he doesn't like.

Was that necessary?

[jaxjags]

Sure glad Kerry didn't live in Jax in 1989.

It wouldn't have mattered.  I am vastly out numbered either way

My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn't move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

[Tacachale]

As far as economics go, the positives and negatives of stadium and sports spending is exaggerated on both ends. They aren't the gravy fountain the supporters claim, or the colossal drain the detractors claim. From what I've read, they're really about even money - the revenues they bring in about covers the cost to the city. There are downsides to that - it's a huge opportunity cost, that could have been spent on something else. But there are also upsides. Namely, it's a quality of life expense. It's something that makes people - a lot of people - happy, it brings them together, and gives them a sense of pride about their city. Sports, like art, parks, libraries, and festivals, are quality-of-life expenses.

This is from one of the various studies of sports team spending. It's something the critics usually don't acknowledge:

"Sport facilities and teams create a variety of benefits that are completely unrelated to their ability to generate jobs or income. The cultural importance and psychological benefits associated with professional sport teams likely outweigh their economic impacts, providing residents a common ground, a topic of conversation, and sometimes a source of pride. An entire region can benefit from an enhanced central city image, and many believe that professional sports teams simply improve quality of life. Residents never need purchase a ticket to derive utility from a sports team. These benefits exist regardless of any contribution of the team or facility to the local economy."

By Charles A. Santo, "Cities, Stadiums, and Subsidies: Why Cities Spend So Much on Sports", p. 87. In Sport and Public Policy: Social, Political, and Economic Perspectives, 2010.