Mayor Curry wants the Landing back

[thelakelander]

I was pointing out that the offerings of 5pts are what the landing should be targeting as part of the redevelopment plan that does not include sleiman.

We'd need more information but based on the type of built context and ownership make-up, the leasing rates may not be comparable. Thus, I'd recommend leaving specific tenant mix decisions up to the retail developer regardless of whether it's Sleiman or someone else.

what it has to do with the landing is it reveals what people want in the area of dining and entertainment

More people flock to SJTC and its chains. Both examples highlight certain segments of the market.  For all we know, the Landing's niche could be something significantly different from both what people seek at SJTC and Five Points. Neither of those have 60,000 office workers at their doorstep during the weekdays or immediate access to a few of the largest hotels in the city or the proximity to cultural venues such has the performing arts center.  All of these things could play a significant role in what the Landing's market is, in comparison to some other areas locally.

which is not anywhere close to these beauties:
http://www.sleiman.com/LeasingInformation/MandarinProperties.aspx

look through those properties.  that should be case closed on whether sleiman's involvement is good for the landing.  the guy has never done anything interesting or high end or in an urban setting

Definitely doubt there's a high end market in Jax to fill 125,000 square feet of space in downtown.  Rouse's downtown experience pretty much confirms this. Nevertheless, for all the complaints about Sleiman and urban shopping, no developer has pulled off a successful urban infill retail project since Downtown Center in the 1960s. Not Regency Centers, not Ben Carter, not Simon, etc.

But hey maybe we can get a Bealls, a vape shop and a 2nd subway downtown at least!  In 25 years itll be popping off

If Bealls, Stein Mart, Ross, etc. want to come to downtown and invest in opening a store.....great. They offer products that you can't find in the downtown core.  By the same token, if some of his tenants you omitted like Earth Fare, Barnes & Noble, Trader Joe's, Epic Theatres, Walgreens, Jollibee, etc. want to open in downtown....they're welcome too.

[jlmann]

so it seems many here will be happy if literally any store opens that offers a product not currently available downtown.

"EWWW look!  a ross, barns and noble and walgreens- let's go!"

said no one ever.

if we actually put that kinda crap at the landing it'll be a "what were they thinking putting a Walgreens on the river ?!" moment years from now- a la all the other genius decisions we've made with riverfront property through the years- and none as prime as this.

I'm sure there were planners and consultants who made a semi reasonable case each and every time.  Ones with no vision.

[jlmann]

who says we need 125k sqft?  of course it doesn't have to be all high end.  my point is that sleimans properties are atrocious and he has no experience with anything even approaching the creative design that would be required

look at the last proposal.

if I had to sum up the view of some on this forum in a single statement it would be "pleasepleaseplease put something, anything there"

[KenFSU]

so it seems many here will be happy if literally any store opens that offers a product not currently available downtown.

"EWWW look!  a ross, barns and noble and walgreens- let's go!"

said no one ever.

if we actually put that kinda crap at the landing it'll be a "what were they thinking putting a Walgreens on the river ?!" moment years from now- a la all the other genius decisions we've made with riverfront property through the years- and none as prime as this.

I'm sure there were planners and consultants who made a semi reasonable case each and every time.  Ones with no vision.

Walgreens would be a godsend for the Landing.

[thelakelander]

so it seems many here will be happy if literally any store opens that offers a product not currently available downtown.

Yeah, I'd personally be happy if a successful business decides to make an investment in downtown Jacksonville.

"EWWW look!  a ross, barns and noble and walgreens- let's go!

said no one ever.

Who cares?  Even Manhattan has multiple Walgreens and 7-Elevens.  Even downtown Miami has an urban Ross, CVS and Marshall's within three blocks of urban Whole Foods and Macy's.  Under no circumstances should we be limiting the free market from assisting in the revitalization of downtown.

if we actually put that kinda crap at the landing it'll be a "what were they thinking putting a Walgreens on the river ?!" moment years from now- a la all the other genius decisions we've made with riverfront property through the years- and none as prime as this.

Bayside Marketplace, has a Chili's, Hooter's and Subway, along with a Hard Rock Cafe. No one complains about a Subway being in a riverfront retail center.  However, it rakes in cash from consumers not trying to break the bank at the more expensive eateries.  4th Street Live! in Louisville, a place you'd probably love to see the Landing turn into, has everything from a Guy Fieri's Smokehouse to a Smoothie King.  No one complains about Smoothie King being a tenant.  Regarding the Landing, no one complained when B.Dalton was selling books in the riverfront center.  Nevertheless, there's a whole strip of the Landing that doesn't have riverfront views, that people also claim turns its back to downtown.  Those spaces that face/back up to Independent Drive and downtown would possibly be suitable for some of these types of businesses.

[thelakelander]

who says we need 125k sqft?  of course it doesn't have to be all high end.  my point is that sleimans properties are atrocious and he has no experience with anything even approaching the creative design that would be required

The Landing is 125,000 square feet.  I guess if you're advocating for complete demolition and burning millions of public tax dollars in the process, whatever replaces it can be smaller.  I'm also not sold a new "creative design" is a requirement for the Landing's success.  That's a Jacksonville visionary's dream more than anything remotely market based.  Structurally, it needs a good bath and mentally, a firm commitment on a future direction. Most importantly, it needs the vibrant core that was promised to Rouse nearly 40 years ago.

look at the last proposal.

if I had to sum up the view of some on this forum in a single statement it would be "pleasepleaseplease put something, anything there"

The city's revamp of it wasn't much better.  Forget all of the full redevelopment proposals. Save the cash and address downtown's real issues.

[KenFSU]

^You can't throw a stone on the Las Vegas strip without hitting a Walgreens either.

There's one right in the middle of City Center, the most swank, expensive private development in U.S. history.

And you can go in there any hour of the day and be sure that the line's going to be 20 minutes long.

[Adam White]

Well, I'd rather have something successful and pedestrian than something upscale or chichi and dying on the vine.

[KenFSU]

Well, I'd rather have something successful and pedestrian than something upscale or chichi and dying on the vine.

There's a lot to be said for utility.

[vicupstate]

You have to crawl before you can walk, and DT JAX is barely even crawling.  Getting a Walgreens would be a huge win for the Landing or anywhere in DT JAX.  The residential base is not there, the tourist base is not there, the work force is flat-lining at best.   

Even in a successful DT, 125k SF is a lot of space to fill in one spot.

ANY redevelopment of the Landing from ANYONE is going to require public assistance, or at the VERY least donation of the land.

The best shot would be something that is not necessarily upscale but is unique and not replica-table in the burbs. JAX's version of Pike's Place (Seattle) with a food hall atmosphere along with restaurants and bars included. Ancillary stores like a Walgreens would be appropriate. The Dead space (non revenue generating like the food court seating and the interior mall corridor) would need to be eliminated.   

Even that route would likely need more visitors, more hotel rooms (or at least filling the ones already there), more office workers, and ideally more residences nearby to work long-term.

I didn't think some on here appreciate what a white elephant it is in many respects.           

[camarocane]

Something akin to Pikes Place would be great! I think the various seafood and produce shops, bars, cafes, etc. would work really well. Does anyone know why the city is holding onto the property?   What do they lose from selling it?

[jlmann]

pikes place is exactly what I was talking about don't know why folks got hung up on the high end comment.  merely pointing out that sleiman has one offering if history is any guide. and one of the main points ive been making is that it should not be something one can find in the burbs. I cant see how anyone thinks sleiman will deliver something like pikes.  and pikes place has a variety of dining incl high end.  the landing should be set up to evolve into to that in time should the market develop, which I would hope people desire for dt in time

a walgreens as part of that, ok sure.  but if he throws a walgreens and mcds they'll have leverage given current landing and be much too prominent.  then pikes place jax or the like never happens. 

it should be done to compliment laura street trio.  developing it to be a tiny improvement over the current state of dt makes no long term sense.

sooo many other places to put a drug store or fast food

[thelakelander]

Pikes Place is cool but let's be serious. Our "Pike's Place" is the Jacksonville Farmers Market.  Read up on the history of that place, take a serious look at the density around it, the type of vendors, and glance at the pictures of tenant spaces below:

















Trying to recreate a large Disneyfied version of that at the Landing will end up being as big of a white elephant as Rouse's festival marketplace concept was.  For something like that to work, we'd need to establish a tourism and residential base to support it first.  Btw, some of you may be too young to remember, but when the Landing first opened, the space where Village Bread is was a smaller disneyfied version of this. It was called Market Hall.  I'll post the original Landing's layout and renderings, so you'll get a better idea of what it was supposed to be.

[cline]

would 5pts be what it is today with a mcdonalds and cvs etc?

Of course not.  That ranks as one of the more insane things ive read in some time.  Its the opposite! The fact that it isn't filled with crap readily available in the burbs is exactly why it draws people in from surrounding areas and is the city's hotspot.  It's why people go to the beaches town center.  Its why King St has been revitalized. 

There's a mcdonalds and Walgreens in the Beaches Town Center. There's also a Walgreens in a prime spot on king street. What's your point- its takes all kinds of mixes. There's also a contingent of people who would argue that 5 pts had a far better and "unique" mix of businesses in the 80's than it does now.

[MusicMan]

I agree with Lake. Focus on getting downtown residential expanded and many of the issues/problems there will take care of themselves.

Focus future spending on that. Leave The Landing and Tony Sleiman to his own devices.  The Mayor should know better.

As soon as 10,000 people live in the Northbank core (NOT SAN MARCO side) you will see massive changes down there. Businesses will want to be there.