City will seek Proposals for Shipyards + Met Park Combined Development

[thelakelander]

Ennis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.

But we have had them and better in other cities all over the globe. Also, I'm not saying they aren't a positive for downtown Jacksonville. I believe that they are.  I'm specifically referring to making an indoor practice center that's not available for most of the year, your premier exhibition hall space for conventions.  Seriously, if that's what Jax has to offer, are we then out of the market for any major event held during football season?

[Steve]

Ennis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.

If I had a nickel for every time we had a supposed "savior" of downtown, that would be....a lot of nickels. First it was Toney Sleiman, then it was Cameron Kuhn, now it's Mark Lamping.

Now, to be clear: Khan's bank account is FAR bigger than the other two combined, and it appears to be a lot more liquid. The others had money on paper and assets like real estate. I have no doubt that Khan, if he wanted to, could front the money and build his entire plan in one phase. Now, he won't do that for many reasons but regardless we can't throw all eggs into one rich guy's basket.

[KenFSU]

All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?

The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.

And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.

To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.

Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.

[FlaBoy]

All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?

The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.

And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.

To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.

Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.

The question becomes can we afford all of that if Khan asks for public money for hotel/convention space by the stadium. Remember, the IPF is really focused on training camp and early season use from July-October when weather is really hot/rainy and maybe to get the guys out of the sun on a Tuesday to save some legs. The slowest convention season here would have to be July and August for sure since who really wants to come to Florida that time of year? I would assume our busy season would also be from January through April.Maybe October through early December would be second?

The first IPFs were coming on line around 2010 at college campuses so it will be interesting to see how they can be used. 

[RattlerGator]

I presumed this would not have to be emphasized but I see I was wrong: this indoor practice facility? It is wrong to write it will largely be unavailable during football season. I've written that before, Ennis has chosen to ignore it.

That is completely wrong. But let us see how the first year or two plays out.

However, this much is certain: that space will not be where the Jaguars EXCLUSIVELY practice. Not at all. All of us would do much, much better to view it as exhibition space. A different kind of exhibition space, to be sure, and with special responsibilities and demands on its use -- yes -- but exhibition space nevertheless.

To even discuss this in terms of college indoor practice facilities is to entirely confuse the issue.

[edjax]

I presumed this would not have to be emphasized but I see I was wrong: this indoor practice facility? It is wrong to write it will largely be unavailable during football season. I've written that before, Ennis has chosen to ignore it.

That is completely wrong. But let us see how the first year or two plays out.

However, this much is certain: that space will not be where the Jaguars EXCLUSIVELY practice. Not at all. All of us would do much, much better to view it as exhibition space. A different kind of exhibition space, to be sure, and with special responsibilities and demands on its use -- yes -- but exhibition space nevertheless.

To even discuss this in terms of college indoor practice facilities is to entirely confuse the issue.

Just curious, and perhaps you gave your reasons before, but why do you think it will not largely be unavailable during football season?

[Kerry]

Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line?  If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season?  Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft.  Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.

[remc86007]

According to the manufacturer's website for the turf being used, these are the specs:
Grab Tear (width) 275-287.4 lbs. Force
Grab Tear (length) 300-340.9 lbs. Force

I'm not going to pretend I know what this means. haha

I got this from: http://www.usfinancialnewstoday.com/story/112758/hellas-construction-selected-by-jacksonville-jaguars-to-install-turf-at-new-indoor-practice-facility-at-dailys-place.html

[Kerry]

My guess is that is the force need to tear it, not how much weight it can support.  My guess would be the playing surface is much softer than a concrete floor.

[KenFSU]

All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?

The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.

And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.

To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.

Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.

The question becomes can we afford all of that if Khan asks for public money for hotel/convention space by the stadium. Remember, the IPF is really focused on training camp and early season use from July-October when weather is really hot/rainy and maybe to get the guys out of the sun on a Tuesday to save some legs. The slowest convention season here would have to be July and August for sure since who really wants to come to Florida that time of year? I would assume our busy season would also be from January through April.Maybe October through early December would be second?

The first IPFs were coming on line around 2010 at college campuses so it will be interesting to see how they can be used. 

You've got to think that earmarking any public money for a hotel and expo space for the Jags would be, and should be, a very difficult sell. Right? It's not exactly a quality of life investment for our local citizens. Nor does it, on its own, fill an urgent need. Like I mentioned, I think it would make a great venue for a handful of unique events if it were built, but any public money should be invested in the year-round, day-to-day convention space.

Also, despite their relationship with Khan, I have a really, really hard time believing that Four Seasons would allow a branded hotel in that Met Park spot. 10 years from now if everything is fully built out? Maybe. But as things stand now, I just don't see it.

[JBTripper]

^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works.  Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.

The Georgia World Congress Center, although more of a traditional convention space, is managed by the Georgia World Congress Center Authority... which also manages the Georgia Dome and Centennial Olympic Park (all right next door to each other). I'm sure that's all changing with the new stadium up there, but it's worked well for Atlanta for about 25 years. It's not that far outside the box.

[thelakelander]

I'm not aware of the exhibition hall being closed have the year in order to be used as an indoor football practice facility though.

[JBTripper]

My guess is that is the force need to tear it, not how much weight it can support.  My guess would be the playing surface is much softer than a concrete floor.

If they can have Monster Jam in the stadium, I'm sure they can figure out a way to put a floor down on an indoor, artificial playing surface.

[JBTripper]

I'm not aware of the exhibition hall being closed have the year in order to be used as an indoor football practice facility though.

Well the Falcons practice at their team facility out in Flowery Branch, so that's not an issue. Atlanta is also one of the world's busiest travel hubs, and at least 5 times larger than Jacksonville. They need more space than we do.

The flex field could be used as convention space from January (barring playoffs, and I think we can safely bar playoffs around here) through July, excluding about 3 days in May. It could be used when the team is on the road. It could be used every Monday and Tuesday, all year round, because Monday and Tuesday are typically not practice days during the season.

Meanwhile, the stadium itself already has equal the space of the Prime Osborn and is used exactly 7 days of the year by the Jaguars, which already feels like more programming than the PFO gets.

[JBTripper]

Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line?  If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season?  Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft.  Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.

You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.