The Mathews Bridge: historic or an expensive relic?

[Kerry]

One thing for sure - the financial obligation will not be met by Jacksonville.  The money will have to come from the State or Federal government.  I just don't think those two entities will have any money to give us when the time comes.

I'm not saying the river won't be passable, I am just saying that 7 bridges might be a few too many.  Like many cities that are removing freeways at the end of their lifespan instead of spending money to rebuild them, it might be time to consider that option for other infrastructure like bridges.  Of course, a less expensive type of bridge is always an option.  How much does a new floating pontoon draw bridge cost?

[acme54321]

Of course, a less expensive type of bridge is always an option.  How much does a new floating pontoon draw bridge cost?

Who cares?  That's not even close to a realistic option.

[thelakelander]

One thing for sure - the financial obligation will not be met by Jacksonville.  The money will have to come from the State or Federal government.  I just don't think those two entities will have any money to give us when the time comes.

It's a state road, so yes that source will likely bear the brunt of the costs of eventually replacing or upgrading it. I wouldn't worry about them not having to funds to replace it when absolutely necessary.  Money will just be shifted from some other future project like the Tampa/Jax expressway or northern outer beltway dream some would like to see.

[Steve]

Well, I would challenge the assumption that something has to cross the river.  While it would be a major change for a lot of people, not having a bridge or other means of crossing is certainly an option.  This is an example of why the growth model doesn't work even though every politician preaches it.  I don't think the culture of "have now pay later" will catch up with us - it HAS caught up with us.  Now it might be possible for federal funds at some point but I don't know how much debt the US government will have available in 15 years.

I am a firm believer in progress traps and that many of them will end in some form of collapse because the solution simply isn't obtainable.

Progress trap: The condition human societies experience when, in pursuing progress through human ingenuity, they inadvertently introduce problems they do not have the resources or political will to solve, for fear of short-term losses in status, stability or quality of life.

Well, all of that is fine and dandy, but how would I get to work. I live on the north side of the river (riverside), but work on the southside. My company's building is located where it is for a reason, and it has nothing to do with "downtown being expensive or scary or parking". It's an industrial building adjacent to rail (we have a rail spur that goes inside of our facility).

Or, are you saying that I should live on the south side of the river and never cross?

That is the challenge isn't it.  We built our entire world around a dead end - the automobile.  For millennia the St. Johns River was a natural barrier to travel and starting in 1890 money was used to bridge that barrier.  Since then more money has been spent and even more money will need to be spent in the future.  What happens when we run out of money?  Answer, problems temporarily solved by money become problems again. So what would you do?  There are many answers; move closer to work, your employer move closer to you, take another bridge, find a different job, etc...

The challenge before us is how to build a functional economy and society without spending so much money on the movement of people.  Humans did this for 10,000 years so we can do it again.  No better time to get started than right now.

Well, The Five Boroughs of NYC has over 60 Bridges and Tunnels for vehicles. Now, New York went through a very dark period in it's history with prioritizing the vehicle, but the bottom line is suburbs will always continue to exist....and that's okay.

I think your solutions are extremely idealistic. For example, while pure office buildings can be built in other places, industrial buildings don't have that option in many cases. I'm not going to live in a sea of warehouses. That's the line of work that I chose and that's okay. I'm not going to choose another industry because I have to cross a bridge. I also don't have a fundamental issue paying my share for infrastructure improvements....but I have to know what I'm getting for my money.

[Steve]

One thing for sure - the financial obligation will not be met by Jacksonville.  The money will have to come from the State or Federal government.  I just don't think those two entities will have any money to give us when the time comes.

I'm not saying the river won't be passable, I am just saying that 7 bridges might be a few too many.  Like many cities that are removing freeways at the end of their lifespan instead of spending money to rebuild them, it might be time to consider that option for other infrastructure like bridges.  Of course, a less expensive type of bridge is always an option.  How much does a new floating pontoon draw bridge cost?

I don't know if I agree, but whatever. Much of the traffic that uses I-295 and I-95 is passthrough traffic, and the reason that federal funding exists. Considering Florida's natural geography, Jacksonville will always have this.

[Steve]

It's an industrial building adjacent to rail (we have a rail spur that goes inside of our facility).

Your company is representing my hometown county well. Ship a good percentage of that freight on rail. Benefits their operation and also  reduces the overall amount of truck traffic they really could be putting on the street!

Considering all of our facilities, if we were to shift that rail volume onto a truck that would be a MATERIAL increase of trucks on the road.

[Kerry]

Of course, a less expensive type of bridge is always an option.  How much does a new floating pontoon draw bridge cost?

Who cares?  That's not even close to a realistic option.

Actually, never mind with this idea.  The new pontoon bridge on SR520 in Seattle cost $4.6 billion (although it is longer that what a Mathew's replacement would be).  That is the least feasible of all options probably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Point_Floating_Bridge_(2016)

[SightseerLounge]

Don't wait too long to replace this thing. It will end up like the North River Tunnels on Amtrak.

[spuwho]

Many bridges built in this era suffered from "under engineering" due to a general lack of steel during the Korean War and therefore had small levels of structural redundancy.

The truss for the Mathews (4 lanes wide) uses the same layout as the Tappan Zee bridge (7 lanes wide) in New York, which was finished a year after the Mathews.

The Tappan Zee was considered a huge risk by 2007 and the new Tappan Zee will be done next year, I am curious to know if the Mathews carries much of the same design and longevity risk the Tappan Zee did.

[SightseerLounge]

Many bridges built in this era suffered from "under engineering" due to a general lack of steel during the Korean War and therefore had small levels of structural redundancy.

The truss for the Mathews (4 lanes wide) uses the same layout as the Tappan Zee bridge (7 lanes wide) in New York, which was finished a year after the Mathews.

The Tappan Zee was considered a huge risk by 2007 and the new Tappan Zee will be done next year, I am curious to know if the Mathews carries much of the same design and longevity risk the Tappan Zee did.

The Tappan Zee took so long to get the approval to build. It seems as if there has to be some crisis to get the money and approval to build these structures!

[spuwho]

It was always known the Tappan Zee was a "50 Year" bridge, the designers even said so when it was built. SoNY always assumed they could build a newer, better bridge later. Today it handles 3 times the traffic it was designed for while it rests on floating caissons, innovative for the era, but not really used for longevity.

It was the collapse of the I-35 bridge that created the urgency in their minds, but it took forever to get an agreement on the replacement.

Was the Mathews a "50 year" bridge as well? While the sizes are different, the designs are nearly identical in the trusses and cross members.  Mathews has fixed caissons.

The politics of the Tappan Zee are interesting. It was built at the widest part of the Hudson because the narrower part a few miles downstream falls under the Port Authority of NY-NJ. The Gov. of NY wanted the bridge to be part of the tollway but couldn't overrule the port authority, who didn't want the tollway involved. When the port couldn't muster the dollars, the state took over, but had to use the best available spot farthest south on the Hudson that wasn't in the Port's jurisdiction.

[SightseerLounge]

The Goethals Bridge in Staten Island wasn't too far from the condition of the Tappan Zee!

[spuwho]

The Goethals Bridge in Staten Island wasn't too far from the condition of the Tappan Zee!

Goethals opened in 1929! It was definitely due.

Interesting is the Port used the exact same design as the Tappan Zee.

The towers are interesting for the cables, but I am not sure a Mathews replacement should look that way.

[acme54321]

I may have missed it in the article, but does FDOT have a replacement plan for the bridge yet?  Or a target date?

[thelakelander]

No and no...