The Mathews Bridge: historic or an expensive relic?

[Tacachale]

Sure they do. It will be a bland grey concrete structure costing $30 billion, with an estimated completion date around 2070. But that's if they start by the end of this year.

[spuwho]

I may have missed it in the article, but does FDOT have a replacement plan for the bridge yet?  Or a target date?

They did at one time around 2004/2005 timeframe.  If you search the MJ archive you will see there have been several posts discussing that earlier plan.

FDOT took down the plan website in 2008 and you can recall parts of it on Wayback.

The replacement got as far as 1, maybe 2 public hearings then everything stopped.

I think Lake did a synopsis of the neighborhood impacts the the new bridge would have in East Jacksonville because FDOT wanted to redesign the MLK fishbowl next to the stadium and take a lot of residential out.

The last FDOT study I read on the Mathews replacement showed 2 cable stayed spans on each side of the current and using the old span for transit.  The other plan showed a single 6 lane span with 2 transit lanes in the middle, with the old span being demolished.

Maybe it was Ock or Lake that told me that JTA put the kabosh on it so they could establish their "Flyer" service. The only limitation in that decision is that the Flyer has to share the same 2 lanes in each direction, which keeps it from "flying".

I have been doing a lot of research on bridge replacement spending recently. At the moment, many states are choosing to replace steel truss bridges built in the 1925-1935 eras as they have exceeded their design lives. I think people would be stunned just how many bridges in the US built in that era are still in daily use. They are the most expensive in many cases because they usually had to span a large body.

Right behind that is replacement of many of the plate and girder bridges built in the road building boom between 1950 to 1970. Most of these were part of the original Interstate Highway program. The I-35 bridge that collapsed was one from that era.

Finally, the rest of the dough is going to smaller secondary arterials whose bridges are usually reinforced concrete. Many of these were built by state DOT's as parts of the WPA or before the Feds started the HTF for general highways in the 1950's.

I saw that the new Tappan Zee and Goethals are designed as "100 + Year" bridges which is a good idea considering the cost to build them.

While it may be possible to keep the Mathews going indefinitely, usually the way DOT's do that is to start restricting their loads.

Another benefit the Mathews (and the Hart) bridges have is they dont have to withstand large temp swings like in the north (which causes the  span to flex) and dont have the corrosive road salts.

There is a lot of research on the heartbeats and resonance of bridges now to model how the steel holds up to the daily load and temperature cycles.

I would imagine they have digitally mapped this resonance on the Mathews and have a good idea what the health of the bridge is.

[thelakelander]

Must have been Ock. I doubt the JTA Flyer would have stopped FDOT. If anything, a new bridge would be a plus for the Flyer because the new structure could be built with dedicated transit lanes. The real issue with replacing the Mathews is money. You're easily looking at a +billion dollar project when the day comes.

[spuwho]

Must have been Ock. I doubt the JTA Flyer would have stopped FDOT. If anything, a new bridge would be a plus for the Flyer because the new structure could be built with dedicated transit lanes. The real issue with replacing the Mathews is money. You're easily looking at a +billion dollar project when the day comes.

Something tells me that once the 4 major road projects wrap in Duval (over $1B in build cost) they will start looking at the Mathews again.

It does cost a lot, but my take is they went for the bigger bang for the buck with Overland, 9B and parts of the FCB and the JTB flyover.

Once those are done, aggregating the dough for a bridge redux wont take as long as one thinks, unless the economy goes into the tank again.

[thelakelander]

Personally, I doubt it. That's not exactly how funding works for projects like that. For funding purposes, if it's a roadway capacity project, it will have to end up on the Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) cost feasible project list. 

Based on current needs and forecasted future growth, the LRTP is a list of multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded over a 20-year horizon. The Plan is updated every three to five years with projects that are needed the most and can be funded, considering new growth trends, developments and technologies.

http://northfloridatpo.com/planning-studies/lrtp/

Here's a map of adopted cost feasible projects (which the Mathews did not make it on) through 2040:

https://issuu.com/northfloridatpo/docs/tpo_summarybrochure_pathforward_201?e=19110718/30156370

Here's a link to the larger list of unfunded projects (which includes the Mathews):

https://issuu.com/northfloridatpo/docs/appendix_k_-needs_plan_project_cost?e=19110718/33992666

Shown towards the bottom of page 9, the cost to build a 6-lane bridge with transit, was estimated in 2013 to be $1.2 billion.

Not only is the cost feasible funding pot not unlimited, it's also shared between multiple North Florida counties: Duval, Clay, Nassau and St. Johns. On top of that, it's then split between multiple modes: Roadway, Bike/Ped, TSM&O, Context Sensitive Solutions, Transit and Freight.

An expensive project like the Mathews will struggle to make the LRTP cost feasible project list because it means little to no money will end up being dedicated to much of anything else across multiple counties for decades.

Unless Trump has a New Deal program up his sleeves, I'm of the opinion that the Mathews (as long as it's structurally sound) will still be in its current state 20 years from now.

[spuwho]

Personally, I doubt it. That's not exactly how funding works for projects like that. For funding purposes, if it's a roadway capacity project, it will have to end up on the Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) cost feasible project list. 

Based on current needs and forecasted future growth, the LRTP is a list of multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded over a 20-year horizon. The Plan is updated every three to five years with projects that are needed the most and can be funded, considering new growth trends, developments and technologies.

http://northfloridatpo.com/planning-studies/lrtp/

Here's a map of adopted cost feasible projects (which the Mathews did not make it on) through 2040:

https://issuu.com/northfloridatpo/docs/tpo_summarybrochure_pathforward_201?e=19110718/30156370

Here's a link to the larger list of unfunded projects (which includes the Mathews):

https://issuu.com/northfloridatpo/docs/appendix_k_-needs_plan_project_cost?e=19110718/33992666

Shown towards the bottom of page 9, the cost to build a 6-lane bridge with transit, was estimated in 2013 to be $1.2 billion.

Not only is the cost feasible funding pot not unlimited, it's also shared between multiple North Florida counties: Duval, Clay, Nassau and St. Johns. On top of that, it's then split between multiple modes: Roadway, Bike/Ped, TSM&O, Context Sensitive Solutions, Transit and Freight.

An expensive project like the Mathews will struggle to make the LRTP cost feasible project list because it means little to no money will end up being dedicated to much of anything else across multiple counties for decades.

Unless Trump has a New Deal program up his sleeves, I'm of the opinion that the Mathews (as long as it's structurally sound) will still be in its current state 20 years from now.

I remember you mentioning before that the Mathews is not on any long term planning schedules and so this is not surprising.

I been around government long enough to know that anything is possible. I am not looking for one, but one political payback could change everything.

But even if it were added to the 2040 plan, it would probably take that long to complete the EIS, CG, DOT and public reviews before any ground is broken.

It took 10 years to get the new Tappan Zee and that was an expedited process!

After the Mathews was repaired post the boat strike, it was deemed fit for purpose and I believe it.

[thelakelander]

It falling into the river would speed things up...

[spuwho]

It falling into the river would speed things up...

According to a FDOT bridge engineer, that last bridge strike came within a few seconds of toppling the span. If the Navy crane hadnt have broken backwards and gave way, we would be dusting off the replacement plan right now.

[spuwho]

The new Lewis & Clark Bridge opened over the Ohio River (also called the "East End Bridge" ) 2 weeks ago with much fanfare.

This now provides relief for traffic through central Louisville using I-265.

Model for a new Mathews?  Note in the drone footage, the healthy amount of pedestrian/bicycle space was included in the design. Ahem, take note FDOT, it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/v/_5S1dtegI6U

[thelakelander]

Minus the cables, it looks like the Fuller Warren Bridge project FDOT will be starting this year.