The Mathews Bridge: historic or an expensive relic?

[Metro Jacksonville]

The Mathews Bridge: historic or an expensive relic?



Former FDOT Public Information Officer Mike Goldman exposes the good, bad and ugly reality behind the past, present and future of the Mathews Bridge.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-sep-the-mathews-bridge-historic-or-an-expensive-relic

[spuwho]

Time for Florida to do what other states do, start saving.

Start setting aside monies for its replacement now so one does not have to throw out the toll question. Its not novel or ground breaking, its just common sense.

Gotta say Florida is weird sometimes. They abhor tolls but abhor taxes more. How do you think you are going to pay for all of this?

In a strange twist of irony, the very same bridge that fostered the exit from downtown, could be its limiting factor to recover.

[Charles Hunter]

Good article. I hope you can use more of Mr. Goldman's insights from his years at FDOT.
One safety issue not addressed, when the bridge opened, it had no divider wall between the lanes. After a number of head-on crashes,  the divider was added.

The Mathews, Fuller Warren, and other toll-financed projects led to the creation of the Jacksonville Expressway Authority, which is now JTA.

One minor correction. Although the Dames Point  (or Napoleon Bonaparte Broward) Bridge was slated to have tolls, the toll plazas were never built due to the Hazouri referendum.

[thelakelander]

^I've been talking to Mike about providing occasional content for a few months. He's a wealth of knowledge when it comes to Jacksonville history, transportation and infrastructure development.

[Kerry]

$1 billion?  Next idea please.  It is quite a corner we have painted ourselves into with unaffordable urban sprawl.  We had to borrow to build it (repaid by taxes or tolls) and we can barely afford to maintain it, let alone replace it.  It is one of the biggest progress traps on the planet.  It is time for Plan B.

On a related note, I wish we could stop naming public infrastructure after people, especially politicians that bankrupted us.  I would prefer things were named after their function, location, or historical significance.

[spuwho]

$1 billion?  Next idea please.  It is quite a corner we have painted ourselves into with unaffordable urban sprawl.  We had to borrow to build it (repaid by taxes or tolls) and we can barely afford to maintain it, let alone replace it.  It is one of the biggest progress traps on the planet.  It is time for Plan B.

On a related note, I wish we could stop naming public infrastructure after people, especially politicians that bankrupted us.  I would prefer things were named after their function, location, or historical significance.

Kerry, we would still have to pay for something to cross the river, be it ferries, tunnels, buses or trains. While in many cases, yes, the growth has been poorly managed, you still have to work with what is still in place.

Yes our physical presence is out growing our population expansion, but mobility is still key to a functioning economy.

Our current culture of "have now, pay later" will most definitely catch up with us.

Just wait until the Mathews start to fall apart right about the time the pension tax kicks in.  People will then expect Florida Senator Curry to come up with the federal dollars to replace it since it was his pension tax that kept us from paying for a new one.

Wouldnt that be coincidence?

[Gunnar]

Gotta say Florida is weird sometimes. They abhor tolls but abhor taxes more. How do you think you are going to pay for all of this?

Wishful thinking, prayers or magic ?

[tufsu1]

Time for Florida to do what other states do, start saving.

Florida actually does a better job of maintaining its bridges than just about every other state. 

My issue is that we keep building more lanes on our expressways and more flyover ramps....meaning maintenance costs will continue to increase

[Kerry]

$1 billion?  Next idea please.  It is quite a corner we have painted ourselves into with unaffordable urban sprawl.  We had to borrow to build it (repaid by taxes or tolls) and we can barely afford to maintain it, let alone replace it.  It is one of the biggest progress traps on the planet.  It is time for Plan B.

On a related note, I wish we could stop naming public infrastructure after people, especially politicians that bankrupted us.  I would prefer things were named after their function, location, or historical significance.

Kerry, we would still have to pay for something to cross the river, be it ferries, tunnels, buses or trains. While in many cases, yes, the growth has been poorly managed, you still have to work with what is still in place.

Yes our physical presence is out growing our population expansion, but mobility is still key to a functioning economy.

Our current culture of "have now, pay later" will most definitely catch up with us.

Just wait until the Mathews start to fall apart right about the time the pension tax kicks in.  People will then expect Florida Senator Curry to come up with the federal dollars to replace it since it was his pension tax that kept us from paying for a new one.

Wouldnt that be coincidence?

Well, I would challenge the assumption that something has to cross the river.  While it would be a major change for a lot of people, not having a bridge or other means of crossing is certainly an option.  This is an example of why the growth model doesn't work even though every politician preaches it.  I don't think the culture of "have now pay later" will catch up with us - it HAS caught up with us.  Now it might be possible for federal funds at some point but I don't know how much debt the US government will have available in 15 years.

I am a firm believer in progress traps and that many of them will end in some form of collapse because the solution simply isn't obtainable.

Progress trap: The condition human societies experience when, in pursuing progress through human ingenuity, they inadvertently introduce problems they do not have the resources or political will to solve, for fear of short-term losses in status, stability or quality of life.

[carpnter]

Time for Florida to do what other states do, start saving.

Start setting aside monies for its replacement now so one does not have to throw out the toll question. Its not novel or ground breaking, its just common sense.

Gotta say Florida is weird sometimes. They abhor tolls but abhor taxes more. How do you think you are going to pay for all of this?

In a strange twist of irony, the very same bridge that fostered the exit from downtown, could be its limiting factor to recover.

I think a big part of the issue is that a lot of Jacksonville residents remember the toll gates and how much it slowed the flow of traffic down.
As long as there are no gates on the main lanes of traffic I don't have a problem with tolls. 

[mbwright]

I think there are very few infrastructure items, roads, bridges, schools, sewer, etc that include an appropriate funding included/budgeted for maintenance, and repairs over time.  It's like when you buy a house and pay the mortgage, but don't have enough to replace the roof, AC, and other items down the road.

[Steve]

Well, I would challenge the assumption that something has to cross the river.  While it would be a major change for a lot of people, not having a bridge or other means of crossing is certainly an option.  This is an example of why the growth model doesn't work even though every politician preaches it.  I don't think the culture of "have now pay later" will catch up with us - it HAS caught up with us.  Now it might be possible for federal funds at some point but I don't know how much debt the US government will have available in 15 years.

I am a firm believer in progress traps and that many of them will end in some form of collapse because the solution simply isn't obtainable.

Progress trap: The condition human societies experience when, in pursuing progress through human ingenuity, they inadvertently introduce problems they do not have the resources or political will to solve, for fear of short-term losses in status, stability or quality of life.

Well, all of that is fine and dandy, but how would I get to work. I live on the north side of the river (riverside), but work on the southside. My company's building is located where it is for a reason, and it has nothing to do with "downtown being expensive or scary or parking". It's an industrial building adjacent to rail (we have a rail spur that goes inside of our facility).

Or, are you saying that I should live on the south side of the river and never cross?

[thelakelander]

It's an industrial building adjacent to rail (we have a rail spur that goes inside of our facility).

Your company is representing my hometown county well. Ship a good percentage of that freight on rail. Benefits their operation and also  reduces the overall amount of truck traffic they really could be putting on the street!

[Kerry]

Well, I would challenge the assumption that something has to cross the river.  While it would be a major change for a lot of people, not having a bridge or other means of crossing is certainly an option.  This is an example of why the growth model doesn't work even though every politician preaches it.  I don't think the culture of "have now pay later" will catch up with us - it HAS caught up with us.  Now it might be possible for federal funds at some point but I don't know how much debt the US government will have available in 15 years.

I am a firm believer in progress traps and that many of them will end in some form of collapse because the solution simply isn't obtainable.

Progress trap: The condition human societies experience when, in pursuing progress through human ingenuity, they inadvertently introduce problems they do not have the resources or political will to solve, for fear of short-term losses in status, stability or quality of life.

Well, all of that is fine and dandy, but how would I get to work. I live on the north side of the river (riverside), but work on the southside. My company's building is located where it is for a reason, and it has nothing to do with "downtown being expensive or scary or parking". It's an industrial building adjacent to rail (we have a rail spur that goes inside of our facility).

Or, are you saying that I should live on the south side of the river and never cross?

That is the challenge isn't it.  We built our entire world around a dead end - the automobile.  For millennia the St. Johns River was a natural barrier to travel and starting in 1890 money was used to bridge that barrier.  Since then more money has been spent and even more money will need to be spent in the future.  What happens when we run out of money?  Answer, problems temporarily solved by money become problems again. So what would you do?  There are many answers; move closer to work, your employer move closer to you, take another bridge, find a different job, etc...

The challenge before us is how to build a functional economy and society without spending so much money on the movement of people.  Humans did this for 10,000 years so we can do it again.  No better time to get started than right now.

[thelakelander]

Flagler bridged the river with a railroad in the 1890s, which gave life to the rest of the state. The first automobile/streetcar crossing didn't come on the scene until the 1920s. Crossing the river at this point, isn't about little Jacksonville's livelyhood.  We can do whatever we want, in terms of becoming a more sustainable community regardless of the Mathews Bridge. However, when it comes down to determining what happens with the Mathews, the decision, how to pay for it and the cost of paying for it will extend far beyond what Jax residents want and think.