Strategic Defunding of Charter Schools

[Adam White]

Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar

Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.

I did... but certainly not privileged.  Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"?  The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend.  Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.

Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...

If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.

Dude... my family at the time was easily classified in the lower middle class.  Glad to hear you think that is privileged...  We scrimped and saved and sacrificed to do what we did.  The point of the charter school is to give families with NO OPTIONs... some options.  You seem to be saying... too bad for you... pretty harsh.

No, what I'm saying is that we need to fix the schools so we don't have to have "options" such as charter schools.

[BridgeTroll]

Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar

Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.

I did... but certainly not privileged.  Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"?  The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend.  Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.

Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...

If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.

Dude... my family at the time was easily classified in the lower middle class.  Glad to hear you think that is privileged...  We scrimped and saved and sacrificed to do what we did.  The point of the charter school is to give families with NO OPTIONs... some options.  You seem to be saying... too bad for you... pretty harsh.

No, what I'm saying is that we need to fix the schools so we don't have to have "options" such as charter schools.

And I agree... that the schools need fixing.  But when a parent is faced with sending a child to a hellhole for "school"... they need an alternative.  Private and parochial schools are often out of reach.  I agree charters have a "checkered" resume... but there are good ones and that choice should be available until the public school is... "fixed".

[Tacachale]

Dysfunction in urban school districts such as Duval is what's driving the charter school movement. The same issue has made families of means move to suburban districts with better schools (white flight), or send their kids to private schools or magnets where they exist for many years. It's a deep rooted problem, and closing down charter schools isn't going to do a thing to help it, not to mention that it's not going to happen.

In Duval County, the school district has been dysfunctional since at least the 60s. Before that, it was segregated, so things were even worse. Attacking charter schools is picking around the edges of our real problems.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?

[Tacachale]

What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?

It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.

[BridgeTroll]

It is not just urban schools in Duval... my daughter went to a math science magnet in the core and thrived.  The local suburban hellhole she was going to be sent to was a perennial failing F school.  We did not have a charter school option...

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?

It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.

You're generalizing. 

What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?

Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time:  Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.

I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.

I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well. 

What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS?  Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.

And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault.  He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus.  My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.

[Tacachale]

It is not just urban schools in Duval... my daughter went to a math science magnet in the core and thrived.  The local suburban hellhole she was going to be sent to was a perennial failing F school.  We did not have a charter school option...

I mean "urban" in the sense that the district includes the actual city, rather than strictly suburban districts like St. Johns. Schools in more hard put suburban districts will have the same issues, especially when the district as a whole is strained. Magnet schools tend to reflect their student body, who naturally don't all come from the neighborhood.

[Tacachale]

What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?

It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.

You're generalizing. 

What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?

Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time:  Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.

I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.

I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well. 

What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS?  Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.

And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault.  He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus.  My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.

Specifically, it is "very large" and "historically underfunded". It also "handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that". As one example, the schools are apparently more segregated today than they were in the 90s', and that's without counting the mostly white schools in the metro outside the county. Additionally, having to demote so many resources to struggling schools means less for the others. Unfortunately, this pushes an unusual number of families into other districts, private schools, or the magnets. A recent study showed that Duval County has a disproportionate problem with teacher retention - new teachers get burnt out at the struggling schools and move on.

All that said, it's possible to get an excellent education at Duval County Schools. There are good schools in the district, and within many schools, even the struggling ones, there are top notch programs and teachers. That's especially true for magnet students and other high performers. Many of the best and brightest folks in town came out of Duval County schools, and conversely, some of the biggest losers I've ever met have come from private schools and SJCSD. However, on average, DCPS underperforms, and the current rate of charter, private schools, and white flight is a symptom of that.

[FlaBoy]

What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?

It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.

You're generalizing. 

What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?

Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time:  Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.

I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.

I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well. 

What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS?  Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.

And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault.  He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus.  My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.

I agree with your premise that if a kid wants to succeed, the resources are there for them. However, the atmosphere at Ribault is different than Mandarin. I taught at a school on the northwest side of town for several years and I am so proud of many of my students who have done great things. However, most of my students couldn't come close to reading at grade level. Even my successful students who went on to reputable four year universities were behind their peers from Fletcher or Mandarin. I had a few bright and shining stars who could go head to head with anyone but the system failed most of my students because it was an uphill battle by the time they reached my classroom. A dirty little secret: most of my students had to take remedial classes in college after they got there (especially at reputable four year universities) because they were behind even with a 4.3 GPA.

Before they eased up the FSA for high schools, Ribault/Raines/Jackson were all around 10-15% of kids reading on grade level in 10th grade for the life of the FCAT. Those schools lived and died on gains scores to not be an F. The one size fits all system that DCPS has pushed, and most districts, has failed kids in lower income communities. Charters are a beautiful thing because they can be innovative and try things for different populations. Some are incredibly successful and some aren't. The ones that aren't successful are shut down or don't have enough kids. The ones that are successful replicate and have waiting lists. In the end, are kids learning and being supported at school enough to succeed? That is not a one size fits all question. It certainly is not just a funding specific issue either where Jackson got more than double the per pupil funding that Mandarin received last year. It is a real systemic issue that takes a lot of different experimental solutions to try and solve. Charters are just one way.

[Adam White]

And what about all the kids whose chance at education was shot because they went to a bad charter school?

Or the ones who didn't get in because they didn't meet the requirements or the waiting list was too long?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I'm just throwing some stuff out there and thinking out loud now: 

Are we really helping ourselves with the "No Child Left Behind" policies?

Should there be more options regarding trade schools and such for students with no inclination for furthering their education?

Are MORE schools really the answer or does that just stretch the available resources thin?

I also think everyone should reacquaint themselves with this video (long but worth it)    :

https://www.youtube.com/v/KOPZH1IyaRk?

[BridgeTroll]

A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?

[Adam White]

A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?

Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.

[BridgeTroll]

A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?

Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.

I didnt... initially