Lawsuit Filed Against Curry's Pension Sales Tax

[TheCat]

lawsuit filed regarding the language in Mayor Curry's Sales Tax Pension Plan.

Actual Language:

Permanently closing up to three of the City's underfunded defined benefit retirement plans, increasing the employee contribution for those plans to a minimum of 10%, and ending the Better Jacksonville ½-cent sales tax are all required to adopt a ½-cent sales tax solely dedicated to reducing the City's unfunded pension liability.  Shall such pension liability sales tax, which ends upon elimination of the unfunded pension liability or in 30 years maximum, be adopted?"


Story Links
http://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/lawsuit-filed-over-pension-plan-ballot-language

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-07-27/story/group-voters-files-suit-knock-half-cent-sales-tax-aug-30-ballot

[dv8]

the strong arm tactics of lenny & company should be enough to dissuade voters from supporting this new 45 year tax.  How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?   Add the inept, wasteful spending record of local govt. [ http://folioweekly.com/The-DOWNTOWN-LIBRARYS-NEW-DISASTER,15669 ] and Lenny's indifference to the ethical challenges of his staff.

All of these spell out another massive SNOW JOB with a stealth agenda to vote when most citizens don't participate.  The massive PR campaign (funded by those with the most to gain from city govt) reeks of a "newer, more better" jax, again at our expense.  the former mayor "Johns"  delaney and peyton kicked the can down the road.  I wish we could kick some of the pension out of their pants and make local govt start telling the naked truth.

[TheCat]

Permanently closing up to three of the City's underfunded defined benefit retirement plans, increasing the employee contribution for those plans to a minimum of 10%, and ending the Better Jacksonville ½-cent sales tax are all required to adopt a ½-cent sales tax solely dedicated to reducing the City's unfunded pension liability.  Shall such pension liability sales tax, which ends upon elimination of the unfunded pension liability or in 30 years maximum, be adopted?"

A lot of room for negotiation in this language. It's a vote to close UP to 3 plans, not necessarily three plans. It's a vote to increase employee contribution to a minimum of 10%, not necessarily 10%.

The implication of this language is BJP will end immediately with a yes vote and the new pension tax will take its place.

There is no language about when the pension tax will actually be implemented...

[vicupstate]

The implication of this language is BJP will end immediately with a yes vote and the new pension tax will take its place.

This is the biggest issue I have with the wording and it DEFINITELY needs to be changed. It is misleading at best and flat out false at worst.

[benmarcus]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

[Noone]

The implication of this language is BJP will end immediately with a yes vote and the new pension tax will take its place.

This is the biggest issue I have with the wording and it DEFINITELY needs to be changed. It is misleading at best and flat out false at worst.

+1

[FlaBoy]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

[vicupstate]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

No they are not. They were taxes collected IMMEDIATELY to pay for expenses being incurred IMMEDIATELY. They weren't postponing paying for expenses already incurred,  and then paying for the 'payment holiday'  14 years later, which is essentially what is being voted on now.     

[FlaBoy]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

No they are not. They were taxes collected IMMEDIATELY to pay for expenses being incurred IMMEDIATELY. They weren't postponing paying for expenses already incurred,  and then paying for the 'payment holiday'  14 years later, which is essentially what is being voted on now.   

No. You take out debt in bonds from lenders to build something and the tax pays the bonds off for the next 30 years. There are some differences, but the main one is you already have the liability with the pension fund and it is over a longer period. Most likely, the city will bond in this case as well or use the future dedicated assets to its advantage with lenders for better rates.

[Tacachale]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

No they are not. They were taxes collected IMMEDIATELY to pay for expenses being incurred IMMEDIATELY. They weren't postponing paying for expenses already incurred,  and then paying for the 'payment holiday'  14 years later, which is essentially what is being voted on now.   

No. You take out debt in bonds from lenders to build something and the tax pays the bonds off for the next 30 years. There are some differences, but the main one is you already have the liability with the pension fund and it is over a longer period. Most likely, the city will bond in this case as well or use the future dedicated assets to its advantage with lenders for better rates.

Excellent point, if a sales tax in the future is a "pay day loan", then one now is even more so, as most times the city takes out bonds to build things up front. Hence why it doesn't take fully 30 years to actually build things funded that way.

[FlaBoy]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

No they are not. They were taxes collected IMMEDIATELY to pay for expenses being incurred IMMEDIATELY. They weren't postponing paying for expenses already incurred,  and then paying for the 'payment holiday'  14 years later, which is essentially what is being voted on now.   

No. You take out debt in bonds from lenders to build something and the tax pays the bonds off for the next 30 years. There are some differences, but the main one is you already have the liability with the pension fund and it is over a longer period. Most likely, the city will bond in this case as well or use the future dedicated assets to its advantage with lenders for better rates.

Excellent point, if a sales tax in the future is a "pay day loan", then one now is even more so, as most times the city takes out bonds to build things up front. Hence why it doesn't take fully 30 years to actually build things funded that way.

Basically, sales taxes provide dedicated funding sources. You see short term gains for long term payments normally. I still don't see the negatives on this plan except that a portion of the max 8% sales tax is taken up. We still have 1% to play with if we wanted in the future for infrastructure or schools.

In the end, it's all semantics. The banks will see that Jacksonville has a dedicated funding source to pay this off and Jacksonville will begin to move forward. Hopefully with a good deal from lenders, it is a wash on the cost with inflation and interest.

[Tacachale]

^Honestly, I think the main thing wrong with the plan for a lot of people is that Curry's the one proposing it.

[mtraininjax]

Honestly, I think the main thing wrong with the plan for a lot of people is that Curry's the one proposing it.

His presentation is really not very good, he is a bean counter, not a salesman. Its a hard thing for him to learn in a short amount of time, but he needs some lessons from Hazouri or Delaney, they could sell plans.

[vicupstate]

How many tax dollars have been spent lobbying Tally, bullying city employees, screaming "the SKY is FALLING!"?

100% agree. It'd be one thing if he was advocating for something which had been thoroughly publicly vetted with some measure of consensus of experts, PRIOR to securing it as the "only" option.

In addition to the tax dollars, imagine the amount of donated dollars he's wasted having nonprofits listen to his apocalypse pitch for a payday loan.

Are all sales tax referedums "pay day loan"?

Was the Better Jacksonville Plan with all the facilities built just a "pay day loan?" If we were to push a half cent sales tax to build new school, is that a "pay day loan"?

No they are not. They were taxes collected IMMEDIATELY to pay for expenses being incurred IMMEDIATELY. They weren't postponing paying for expenses already incurred,  and then paying for the 'payment holiday'  14 years later, which is essentially what is being voted on now.   

No. You take out debt in bonds from lenders to build something and the tax pays the bonds off for the next 30 years. There are some differences, but the main one is you already have the liability with the pension fund and it is over a longer period. Most likely, the city will bond in this case as well or use the future dedicated assets to its advantage with lenders for better rates.

Excellent point, if a sales tax in the future is a "pay day loan", then one now is even more so, as most times the city takes out bonds to build things up front. Hence why it doesn't take fully 30 years to actually build things funded that way.

Basically, sales taxes provide dedicated funding sources. You see short term gains for long term payments normally. I still don't see the negatives on this plan except that a portion of the max 8% sales tax is taken up. We still have 1% to play with if we wanted in the future for infrastructure or schools.

In the end, it's all semantics. The banks will see that Jacksonville has a dedicated funding source to pay this off and Jacksonville will begin to move forward. Hopefully with a good deal from lenders, it is a wash on the cost with inflation and interest.

You are completely ignoring the facet that makes this a payday loan situation. The promise of future revenues that will not come for many years, is used to reduce the existing pension payments, so that money (from the reduction of payments) can be spent on something else. 

The BJP bonds are essentially a mortgage on the projects that it built. The tax,  the construction of the projects and the bond payments all started immediately after passage.     

[tufsu1]

^Honestly, I think the main thing wrong with the plan for a lot of people is that Curry's the one proposing it.

personally I'm just looking for bold leadership....we didn't get that with Mayor Brown...and some (including you I think) suggested that Mayor Curry would be strong....this just seems like a cop out