Opinion: The Case for Trump

[peestandingup]

I don't recall Sanders engaging in dog whistle politics (or worse).

Sure he did. An old socialist hippie leftover of the 60s convinced a large group of people that they're entitled to all kinds of crazy & expensive free stuff (that could never be paid for) just for existing. And if they don't get it, then cry about it & keep fighting until they do.

You may have selective memory regarding this, but many of his supporters seemed to twist this around & think it was totally OK to invade other rallies that they didn't agree with & start actual fights, block ambulances, throw eggs & spit on people.

It wouldn't shock me if we see something at the DNC before it's over with.

[Adam White]

I don't recall Sanders engaging in dog whistle politics (or worse).

Sure he did. An old socialist hippie leftover of the 60s convinced a large group of people that they're entitled to all kinds of crazy & expensive free stuff (that could never be paid for) just for existing. And if they don't get it, then cry about it & keep fighting until they do.

You may have selective memory regarding this, but many of his supporters seemed to twist this around & think it was totally OK to invade other rallies that they didn't agree with & start actual fights, block ambulances, throw eggs & spit on people.

It wouldn't shock me if we see something at the DNC before it's over with.

I am not saying that's true, but if it is, it's not dog whistle politics.

I was (and still am) referring to inflammatory rhetoric involving race and religion. Trump has done that. Sanders (for example) has not. Trump has stoked the fires of bigotry to gain votes. And I am specifically referring to bigotry against racial, ethnic and religious groups.

That was my original point - sorry I wasn't more explicit. I assumed it was clear.

[vicupstate]

I have often wondered if the people that think is is so outrageous to fund college tuition with public funds have ever considered that the average college graduate earns a lot more money (typically double or more) than a high school graduate, and in doing so will more than pay back the cost in the additional income taxes they will pay over their lifetime. Most students graduating HS today without further education, would not even make enough to pay federal income taxes at all.  They will also have more money to spend in the general economy as well. Education is an investment in human capital,  capital that doesn't leave the country as easily as currency can in a global economy.       

[Adam White]

I have often wondered if the people that think is is so outrageous to fund college tuition with public funds have ever considered that the average college graduate earns a lot more money (typically double or more) than a high school graduate, and in doing so will more than pay back the cost in the additional income taxes they will pay over their lifetime. Most students graduating HS today without further education, would not even make enough to pay federal income taxes at all.  They will also have more money to spend in the general economy as well. Education is an investment in human capital,  capital that doesn't leave the country as easily as currency can in a global economy.       

And healthy people can work and contribute to the economy. There are some basic rights that all governments should ensure the governed (IMO): food, shelter, education and healthcare. There are others, of course (things like freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of association, privacy, etc).

[ben says]

I don't recall Sanders engaging in dog whistle politics (or worse).

Sure he did. An old socialist hippie leftover of the 60s convinced a large group of people that they're entitled to all kinds of crazy & expensive free stuff (that could never be paid for) just for existing. And if they don't get it, then cry about it & keep fighting until they do.

You may have selective memory regarding this, but many of his supporters seemed to twist this around & think it was totally OK to invade other rallies that they didn't agree with & start actual fights, block ambulances, throw eggs & spit on people.

It wouldn't shock me if we see something at the DNC before it's over with.

What exactly is your point? What does this have to do with the fact Trump would be a TERRIBLE fucking leader.

[finehoe]

I mean, he wrote an entire book on this from a business perspective & he's applying that to politics now.

Except he didn't actually write the book and the guy who did says it's a work of mostly fiction.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all

When Schwartz began writing "The Art of the Deal," he realized that he needed to put an acceptable face on Trump's loose relationship with the truth. So he concocted an artful euphemism. Writing in Trump's voice, he explained to the reader, "I play to people's fantasies. . . . People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It's an innocent form of exaggeration—and it's a very effective form of promotion." Schwartz now disavows the passage. "Deceit," he told me, is never "innocent." He added, " 'Truthful hyperbole' is a contradiction in terms. It's a way of saying, 'It's a lie, but who cares?' " Trump, he said, loved the phrase.

[peestandingup]

Crazy and expensive free stuff? thats ridiculous.

And you might have a selective memory but that is the history of every public demonstration since the 1730s.

You didn't seem to mind this when the Tea Party idiots were crashing anything with the word government on it.  Why the change of heart?

And no, universal health care is not an unpayable expense under the single payer system.

What a bizarre claim in the sand to stake, PSU

Stephen, it was WAY more than universal healthcare ("free" college, childcare, $15 minimum wage, etc) & we all know this. Taxing wall street fat cats & raising taxes on the 1% was his answer to solving everything & it wouldn't even be close to paying for even one of those proposals. So yeah, he was filling impressionable young voter's heads with nonsense that didn't have a clue on how the world actually works & things that were actually obtainable.

And when did I ever follow the Tea Party?? That's a new one to me. I don't know if you just don't remember any of our conversations, but I called them out almost instantly after they latched onto Ron Paul's movement (someone I did like).

I am not saying that's true, but if it is, it's not dog whistle politics.

I was (and still am) referring to inflammatory rhetoric involving race and religion. Trump has done that. Sanders (for example) has not. Trump has stoked the fires of bigotry to gain votes. And I am specifically referring to bigotry against racial, ethnic and religious groups.

Well, I personally think he used plenty of messaging & phrasing that would be categorized as such, but its debatable so I'm not gonna argue that point. If you don't think so, then no big deal. But it doesn't have to involve race & religion.

Talking about illegal aliens, Muslim extremists, etc isn't bigotry. At least not in the sense people are making it out to be (sheer intolerance for no reason). Are you saying we should all have tolerance for such groups of people?? Many countries in Europe thought so & look how well that's working out for them.

What exactly is your point? What does this have to do with the fact Trump would be a TERRIBLE fucking leader.

I made several points, what's yours? Can you make a rational case for your argument besides shouting in caps??

[mtraininjax]

I don't recall Sanders engaging in dog whistle politics (or worse).

Of course, Bern lives in Fantasyland where everything a young person needs will be free and provided by the Federal Government using candyland dollars. The only ones who listen are the same who believe that this fantasy will come true.

Sanders (for example) has not. Trump has stoked the fires of bigotry to gain votes. And I am specifically referring to bigotry against racial, ethnic and religious groups.

Its election season, you stoke fires and get people excited, you build your base and then set them loose in the fall to the election. It happens every voting season. You lean to the Left or Right and govern in the middle. Happens every cycle.

Taxing wall street fat cats & raising taxes on the 1% was his answer to solving everything & it wouldn't even be close to paying for even one of those proposals. So yeah, he was filling impressionable young voter's heads with nonsense that didn't have a clue on how the world actually works & things that were actually obtainable.

+1 , oh and taxing everyone to pay for young voters dreams will only add dynamite to the fire with the middle class who has seen real wage growth below 5% for the last decade. They will be so super happy to pay for young people's education! Ask your parents if they want to be taxed more and step back from the slap!

[Adam White]

I don't recall Sanders engaging in dog whistle politics (or worse).

Of course, Bern lives in Fantasyland where everything a young person needs will be free and provided by the Federal Government using candyland dollars. The only ones who listen are the same who believe that this fantasy will come true.

Sanders (for example) has not. Trump has stoked the fires of bigotry to gain votes. And I am specifically referring to bigotry against racial, ethnic and religious groups.

Its election season, you stoke fires and get people excited, you build your base and then set them loose in the fall to the election. It happens every voting season. You lean to the Left or Right and govern in the middle. Happens every cycle.

As I said, Sanders (as an example) has not employed racism and bigotry (whether implied or stated outright) to get votes. Trump has. That what I was referring to, so I don't see how your 'fantasyland' comment about 'candyland dollars' has anything to do with the point I was making.

As far as your second comment is concerned, you seem to say that it's okay to appeal to racism in order to 'get people excited'. This, to me, means you're no better than a racist or a bigot - which was the point I was making about Trump. It matters not if Trump isn't an actual racist - the fact remains that he has used racist language (coded or blatant) to get people to vote for him. Anyone who would do that is no better than a person who IS a racist. I certainly think it disqualifies him for the Presidency.

[mtraininjax]

As far as your second comment is concerned, you seem to say that it's okay to appeal to racism in order to 'get people excited'. This, to me, means you're no better than a racist or a bigot

So you are calling me a racist or a bigot? Who are you to call people names?

I certainly think it disqualifies him for the Presidency

I think Sanders crazy ideas disqualify him for the Presidency. He has no plans or programs or solutions on how to pay for anything. He lives in fantasyland and uses FREE as a word to build his political base. Feel FREE to disagree..........in a respectful manner.

Clinton deserves to be in jail for her emails. If a regular person took information that was supposed to be private and take it to their house and share it from there, the FBI would put a person in jail. Her handling of the DNC with Wasserman-Schultz, hiring the same person that helped get her elected from within the DNC is an absolute joke. Sanders should have been more livid that WS and other high ranking DNC helped steal the election from him.

Trump is no saint, but he offers a change from lying, career politicians who are not in touch with reality and who come from Washington and are part of the establishment of doing nothing.

Do vote Trump, don't vote Trump, I do not care what you do, but when you vote for Clinton, you are voting for the same Washington elitism that people dislike and want to see reformed.

[Adam White]

As far as your second comment is concerned, you seem to say that it's okay to appeal to racism in order to 'get people excited'. This, to me, means you're no better than a racist or a bigot

So you are calling me a racist?

I don't know if you are a racist. What I am saying is that your comment seems to excuse or rationalise the use of racist language to garner votes. If you honestly believe that, then you are no different than Trump and you (and Trump) are no better than a racist.

Did you seriously not understand what I typed?

As far as your second comment is concerned, you seem to say that it's okay to appeal to racism in order to 'get people excited'. This, to me, means you're no better than a racist or a bigot - which was the point I was making about Trump. It matters not if Trump isn't an actual racist - the fact remains that he has used racist language (coded or blatant) to get people to vote for him. Anyone who would do that is no better than a person who IS a racist. I certainly think it disqualifies him for the Presidency.

[ben says]

Do vote Trump, don't vote Trump, I do not care what you do, but when you vote for Clinton, you are voting for the same Washington elitism that people dislike and want to see reformed.

Call me crazy but I'd rather the status quo/same old than the terror that is Trump...

(This is coming from someone so leftist whereby i thought even Sanders was too moderate)

[Adam White]

This is what I don't get-- Trump is the 1%.  What do people expect from him? I know he talks a good game, but do you really think he's going to put the interests of the poors in front of his ilk? No damn way.

And if people readily admit that he says things he may not necessarily believe in order to get votes, how can they trust him to do other things that he says? What's to say a President Trump would be just another elitist Washington insider? Everyone has to start somewhere.

[finehoe]

He has no plans or programs or solutions on how to pay for anything. He lives in fantasyland...

And this doesn't describe Trump?  The extent of his platform is "we're going to do something really yuge" but never says how.

[TheCat]

Actually, I am not so sure he's a bigot. But the point I seem to have to keep making is that anyone who is willing to do and say the things he does simply to garner votes is just as bad (if not worse) than someone who says and does things because he believes it.

Soooo, pretty much like every candidate in history then?? Tell me how the left doesn't try to use scare tactics regarding social issues, poverty & welfare, etc & I'll buy you dinner.

Pee, I'm not going to get into a debate with you about what is a racist statement and what isn't.

If you would like to splice his words, tweets (and retweets) and his overall campaign strategy to demonstrate how he's not pandering to a certain segment of the American population by exploiting racists sentiments, go for it. I'm all eyes.

Nah, bro. I just think if you're gonna accuse someone of something as serious as being a racist, then you should probably have something to back it up. I'm silly like that I guess.

Yeah, you are silly like that, I guess...or, just playing dumb...which you are not.

At least you realize it's a serious accusation.